My starter fails to turn the engine from time to time, i.e it seems to do all the necessary'clicks' but fails to spin the engine. When it works, the engine fires up instantly - perhaps within a single stroke. The battery is good and I have just had the starter motor serviced to replace the burnt contacts etc but the problem still occasionally occurs. When it occurs, I usually get it going after 10 clicks of the key but most times it's ok. Any ideas? Ring gear? Please say no!
Mark - (#634) Mark Adams, 24 Jul 01
I recognise the [worrying] symptoms which I had in the first couple of weeks with my Townace. Just a few clicks. I thought I might need to replace the starter contacts too. However the problem went away once I concluded that it was me being new to Diesel and Auto, starting it in Neutral and in a hurry. As well as the glow-plug delay, there's some electrical interlocking so it only starts in P and N (I think) and I suspect I was moving the gear stick slightly out of position - or the switch is slightly worn. I always start in P now. Maybe this helps. - (#637) Dave Mason, 24 Jul 01
The starter interlock switch is on the right hand side of the tranny, behind the shift lever. It strips easily for cleaning. There is a fine line marked on it's case that should line up with the flats on the shaft in Neutral.
Check the socket it connects to also- beside to starter, one black, one white wire, both thick. - (#638) David Miller, 24 Jul 01
maybe,maybe not!!!i had trouble starting my masterace after trying everything including recon starter,i had the wiring checked and it turned out to be an immobiliser that was faulty,when it was bypassed i had no trouble at all.maynot help but may give you or others some ideas.--dave l - (#639) DAVE LINNEY, 24 Jul 01
now where else can you get advice this good and as quick as this eh? Thanks chaps! - i'll try all of these suggestions!
cheers
Mark - (#640) markypoos, 24 Jul 01
Thought it worthwhile adding the conclusion to my 'sticky starter' saga from an earlier thread which had got so bad that it would only engage 50% of the time and take 20 or so 'clicks' to engage. Checked out the various electrics as suggested by the Bok - thanks chaps - all sound advice even to assist elimination. Was beginning to despair but in a moment of conviction that the re-con starter still HAD to be at fault - took it back to the electrician who tested it again and found more black burn marks on the contacts indicating a poor contact and burning of oil from somewhere. He cleaned the contacts and adjusted it somehow so that it the contacts 'made' sooner with packing(?). Re fitted it - and is right as rain. Now i need to suss out where the offending oil is coming from . . . One query - the engine starts so well that i rarely run the starter for more than a split second. This also saves the heaters. I wonder if because of the short use of the starter, the contacts are spending proportionally more time 'making and breaking' than actually delivering current that would help to burn off any oil residue. Or is this just (in Dave Miller speak)- "********"?
(!) Mark - (#734) Mark Adams, 3 Aug 01
Mark, for your oil leak, try the joint in the intake duct just above the starter.
Your starter should last longer with short bursts- the current has less time to heat and burn the contacts... - (#736) David Miller, 4 Aug 01
Just starting to notice that when I turn the key to start my MasterAce, there is a noticeable time delay [4-5secs]before I hear the relay click in and the engine turns over. Anything to worry about? Any ideas? - (#1138) Phil J, 27 Sep 01
Phil, you are about to suffer from the intermittent starter won't work problem. It's caused by a voltage drop somewhere from the ign. switch to the solenoid.
A number of us see this occasionally.
A simple cure is to put a relay beside to starter, so that the solenoid current (10 or more amps)doesn't have to go the whole way from the switch.
David - (#1139) david Miller, 27 Sep 01
David
As another occasional sufferer of 'Okay, unload the kids ...' syndrome!
I like the idea of putting in a relay but have an immobiliser fitted and am a bit bothered that this will stuff my insurance. Is there any way you can think of that one could (for example) run a jump lead straight from the battery to somewhere near the starter motor to get things going in a pinch?
Best Regards,
=== JIM
- (#1249) Jim Reynolds, 16 Oct 01
I'm one who has had this worrying symptom for the 4 months I've had the car, and have read the threads here. The intermittent nature of the problem is tantalysing and if there's a "voltage drop" I'd like to know where. Last week I had to make several attempts over a minute to get it to start and I took the starter off to investigate as much as possible, also referring to the RM025E engine repair manual.
First I found that the push-together connector for control lead was very oily (under the auto transmission dipstick tube) and cleaned it up. It might just have been an intermittent bad connection?
I then found that the larger of the main switching contacts inside the solenoid had eroded away to the extent that I could believe it was not closing properly. I replaced both contacts (£5). If this was to be the explanation then the solenoid would have at least been pulling in - but I can't really be sure whether I was hearing that, or just a smaller relay click.
Thirdly I realised that the pull-in current for the solenoid has to pass through the un-energised starter motor (whereas the hold-in current passes direct to chassis). So if the brushes had settled on a spot on the commutator (not every time) where there was poor contact they might hold back the solenoid pull-in current? This seemed a likely cause. I decided not to check then but to see first if the other things had changed the situation.
So far no problems - but with an intermittent fault you have to wait a long time to be sure it's gone. If it returns I'll check the brushes/commutator. - (#1261) Dave Mason, 18 Oct 01
Run a jump lead from the battery to the near the starter? If you like, but...
(1) Take lot's of care!
(2) There shouldn't be any need. There's already an enormous wire doing just that and if you've any doubts about whether that wire's in good order then you'd better check it.
(3) You haven't just go to get the starter motor to turn, you've also got to get the solenoid to pull the pinion to engage with the engine - first.
So all you need "in a pinch" is to connect the 12v, already supplied to the unit via the thick wire, to the small terminal into the solenoid. The thin wire has a pull-apart connector to facilitate that. To pull that connector apart you have to lift its plastic latch, rather than squeeze. Then you have to peel back the cover over the termination of the thick wire and find a corner on to which to dab the exposed connector on the thin wire. Thank you Toyota! No tools, no wire. Dirty hands and clothes? - (#1265) Dave Mason, 19 Oct 01
Mine failed to start for the first time in a month or two last weekend, so I delved in again...
The small terminal on the solenoid has two wires attached on the inside- it's the centre tap of the two windings. One goes to earth( the hold-in coil), the other goes to the motor(this coilpulls the solenoid in, and the solenoid cuts it out when the motor starts). One of the wires had broken away from it's solder. I remade this, and when I was rebuilding, I ran a wire from the solenoid terminal up to the top of the engine bay. If it ever fails to start now, all I have to do is flash this wire onto the live terminal of the big glowplug relay above the fuel filter.
Still hunting the voltage drop, though. - (#1267) David Miller, 20 Oct 01
3 weeks without a single "sticky start" is a definite improvement so I'm concluding that my problem was the eroded main switching contacts in the starter solenoid. I don't think that cleaning up the oily push-together connector in the solenoid supply would have had this effect.
Getting at the solenoid contacts is not too bad. Disconnect earth from battery. Go under the sliding door side. Disconnect two wires from the starter, the big terminal has a 12mm AF nut (this is 12v straight from the battery so you MUST have the battery earth disconnected). Starter body is secured to the engine by two 14mm AF bolts accessible by ring or socket. It's heavy but comes out without removing anything else. The cover plate is held on the end of the solenoid by three 8mm AF bolts and the arrangement of L-shaped copper contacts inside there is straightforward. - (#1364) Dave Mason, 5 Nov 01
Hi,
Several times over the last two days, I've jumped in the townie only to find that she won't start - won't even turn over in fact. All that happens is the lights come on on the dash and nothing else. 30 mins later and she'll start sweet as a nut - what's going on? It seems to be something electrical or a microswitch that's playing up but it's really getting annoying now - especially when I'm in a hurry. Any ideas anyone? please?
Thanks,
Pete - (#2243) Pete Green, 17 Feb 02
You don't say if the vehicle is diesel or petrol.
On my diesel I found that, on colder mornings, I had just the same symptoms which I traced to some corrosion on the battery terminals. Cleaning and greasing the terminals eliminated the problem. - (#2244) John Davis, 17 Feb 02
You might be suffering from the dreaded voltage drop problem, whereby the feed from the ign. switch to the starter is reduced. A relay seems to cure the problem. Another possibility is worn contacts in the solenoid - (#2246) david miller, 17 Feb 02
Yup it's a diesel and I think on all the occasions that the problem's happened it's been cold or damp or both. Thanks for the post - I'll check it out
Cheers,
Pete - (#2248) Pete Green, 17 Feb 02
Thanks Dave, not sure where to look for the solenoid! - is it the small black-capped thing right at the back of the engine chamber with a couple of large wires and a couple of small wires coming out of it? If so, where would the relay attach?
Sorry to be so thick!
Cheers
Pete - (#2249) Pete Green, 17 Feb 02
The solenoid is built onto the starter on these...
Contacts are available at your local auto electrical works for a fiver or so, half an hour to fit. - (#2252) david miller, 18 Feb 02
The "Engine Mechanical" archives on Ace Answers have some background on this.
I've tried to add an general explanatory picture here - not sure if it will work.
It's very difficult to diagnose an intermittent fault like this. My experience was that these symptoms totally disappeared after cleaning things up and replacing the solenoid contacts. On the other hand just last night I was staggered to measure 2.0 volts drop in the feed to the rear cigar lighter when drawing just 6A. Am investigating but already found 0.2v lost on the (aux +ve) battery terminal assembly alone. - (#2261) Dave Mason, 18 Feb 02
Thanks Dave for this splendid picture etc and for taking the trouble. I commented on this query and, in my case it was battery terminals but, of course, with the high load draw which the starter needs, the solenod contacts should be checked also.
Thanks David Miller for the advice re new contacts. At that price it's hardly worth cleaning the old ones up. - (#2264) John Davis, 18 Feb 02
Thanks to all who have posted regarding this problem - especially for the picture which has helped me to see exactly where I'm going with it.
If any of you go to the proposed meet/rally/camp Ace jam - just remind me that I owe you a pint!!
Cheers
Pete - (#2266) Pete Green, 18 Feb 02
Well our townace has it's off moments ( wet cold morning) when it doesn't want to start. By chance I discovered that moving the automatic gearlever through its positions and than starting again it normally will start.
klaus - (#2337) klaus kadur, 24 Feb 02
Sorry to be a pain, but I'd just like to know I am on the right track for changing the starter solenoid. (see photo)
Thanks Pete - (#2293) Pete Green, 20 Feb 02
remove the starter complete first (don't forget to disconnect the battery first) and then you can easily get that end cap off the see/ dress/ replace the contacts. Before you go to that trouble, the next time it won't turn over, crawl under, disconnect the small wire(spade term) and "flash" it against the main battery terminal on the solenoid. If the engine then turns over, it's not the contacts, but a voltage drop in the wiring - (#2301) david miller, 21 Feb 02
The link below should go straight to the Starter thread on Ace Answers - the best wisdom on this subject. In answer to your question, see especially the last posting there(mine 5 Nov 01).
Don't try to work on the starter without removing it from the car, but don't separate the solenoid from the starter, just take the cover plate off the end.
DEFINITELY take the -ve (to chassis) lead off the battery before putting tools anywhere near this area (I'll add a warning to my picture) - the exception is if you just want to test it as David describes, when of course the power must be on.
My feeling is that the test is helpful but not necessarily conclusive - worn contacts sometimes will work, sometimes won't. Eventually they won't at all. - (#2306) Dave Mason, 21 Feb 02
Recently I had the same trouble you`re describing, I removed the starter and found that one of the small screws that hold the cover onto the back of the solenoid was missing. Obviously this centres the shaft, anyway it was being thrown in at an angle and prematurely causing wear on the contacts. Being the impatient type I could`nt wait for a new starter. so I made a new pair of contacts using roughley an inch of 15mm copper tube, flattened, bent at 90 deg and an 8mm hole drilled in one side for the bolt, it`s been on my ace now for nearly 3 mths and still no sign of trouble, hope this works for you .
regards Barry - (#2319) Barry Powell, 22 Feb 02
I have just bought a Townace Super Extra, 1990, 4x4 Turbo Diesel Automatic having wanted one for ages. First fault was starter motor not turning unless persuaded with a hammer. This happened while I was bringing her home. However she started fine when the starter was tapped, though this was with a warm engine. Next day got starter going but she has refused to start for me or our local (highly experienced) garage owner since.
He has checked the heater plugs, which are fine. He is now going to change the timing belt (I was going to have it done anyway) and check the timing. If that doesnt sort it he will check out the fuel pump, and says if it isn't that "we could be looking at something serious". Gulp.
He says that the head has been off recently (past two owners deny any knowledge) and it has a newish radiator.
When bringing her home I thought she was a little sluggish, but not having any experience driving one of these I assumed that that was just the way they are.
Can anyone suggest a cause or possible cure? I would be *very* grateful for any help.
Thanks, Tom.
- (#6193) Tom Lister, 22 Nov 02
I have just bought a Townace Super Extra, built 1990 imported 1997, Reg XDZ2417. I am having a teeny problem with it, and would be interested if anyone knows it's history?
Thanks, Tom
- (#6194) Tom Lister, 22 Nov 02
Tom,
You will find references in the Ace answers (link above) regarding sluggish starters. It is likely to be the starter solenoid contacts, possibly coupled with some corrosion on the battery terminals. The starter contacts are easy to clean and re-make. The battery terminals do, I think, get overlooked because of it's unconventional location. I should be very surprised if you need a new starter and your "hammer" method does indicate that the solenoid contacts are at fault.
- (#6195) John Davis, 22 Nov 02
Thanks John, when the starter comes off I will check these things, but thanks also for the part number - the guy I bought the Townie off has offered to pay for a reconditioned starter, so I think I will take him up on it!
- (#6196) Tom Lister, 22 Nov 02
Hi I am another townace owner with starter problems. The tapping thing exposed by Tom is familiar to me, so I want to try and to repalce the starter contacts but... Although I know where the starter is located, I can't figure what belts I must undone to remove it from the main engine... Any sugestions would be great.
Thanks Luis
- (#6271) Luis, 28 Nov 02
if you think belts need to come off, you're probably thinking of the alternator, NOT the starter...
Starter is on the L/H of the engine low down, just in front of the bellhousing...
- (#6272) david miller, 28 Nov 02
I have a good townie with only one problem. sometimes it will start and sometimes it wont. AA man tother day said it was likely the starter relay or the auto box gear selector cut out in park. This begs a question.
1. Where is the relay switch located
2. where can i get a new one and a new cut out switch as I might as well swop them both.
- (#10728) steve, 18 Sep 03 9:37
Hello Steve.
This is a topic much covered in the archives at http://mpvi.net/ia/indexarc.htm look under Engine Mechanical...then Starter.
the main cause remains something of a mystery, but I believe that cleaning the contacts on the starter and solenoid usually have the desired effect.
- (#10729) dave Bright, 18 Sep 03 10:07
Steve,
The famous voltage drop, what a pain and why at night in the rain in the middle of nowhere?
I gave up trying to find out why and just ran a direct switch to the solenoid on the starter, bypasses all of the relays etc and starts first time every time by this method. I must point out that I had cleaned/replaced contacts etc before installing my resolution to the problem.
All on Ace Answers as Dave says.
- (#10730) Clive, 19 Sep 03 1:37
Steve,
I got tired of the head ache also and ran a direct cable to the starter.
Mervin
- (#10731) mervin, 19 Sep 03 3:06
Yes, this is a familiar topic. But Steve's question, "Where is the relay switch located?" touches on something that persistently puzzles me. Aside from the solenoid contacts, which are a kind of giant relay, and any relay involved in interlocking with the auto gear selector, there does appear to be a relay between the ignition switch and the solenoid. It's shown in both the Toyota RM025E engine repair manual and in Toyota's Townace (1993, Europe spec, English) wiring manuals, of which I've studied a rare copy.
Has anyone ever found where that relay is physically located?
- (#10796) Dave Mason (Sussex), 19 Sep 03 4:31
when i first got mine had same problem. finally adjusted switch mounting for gear, i.e park/neutral, select, all of 1mm. twelve months, no problem. this tiny movement seems to have led to a high resistance on the circuit.
hth.
- (#10863) eddie arrowsmith, 22 Sep 03 17:11
No relay in the Jap townie. All the solenoid current goes from the switch, to the a/c relay under the glovebox, down to the inhibitor switch, then on to the starter...
- (#10864) david miller, 24 Sep 03 2:30