Hello all, any of you who have read the home page will know I have experienced many problems which I feel have been down to insufficient cooling. This week I contacted Kenlowe.co.uk and requested information regarding replacing the viscous fan coupling with an electric fan. They contacted me yesterday with a number and a contact name to call for further assistance.
The person I spoke to took some further details from me including the engine size, fuel type, position, a/c, towing ability and the countries I could be driving to. At the end of this he told me that with the position of the engine and the lack of direct air flow through the radiator he could not advise on replacing the viscous fan coupling with an electric one. Can somebody tell me which kit they purchased from this company and how much it costs and does it provide sufficient flow through the radiator.
- (#3249) Mark, 6 Jun 02
Mark, I think Kenlowe are just covering their rears...
try Pacet, or(cheapest) vehicle wiring products. Size is determined by the height of the rad, I think it's a 10" fan that fits the townie IIRC (i modified another car's fan to suit...)
- (#3254) david miller, 7 Jun 02
Can you tell me why a 10" electric fan is suitable whereas my existing viscous fan has a diameter of 17". How much is the clearance between the engine and cowling, I'd make a rough guess of about 2.5".
- (#3260) Mark, 7 Jun 02
Visited the Pacet site and checked out the fans which appear to fit directly onto the radiator, is this correct. The example of the Morris Ital shows the fan being cable tied through the radiator fins, does this mean we can do away with the shroud that the existing fan has and how about the earlier question regarding size?
Also, can anybody tell me the rough cost of getting one of these kits and the model / size they used.
- (#3261) Mark, 7 Jun 02
yes, the shroud isn't necessary- makes accessing the belts etc easier, too. A Pacet fan will be about £90, the VWP unit £50
- (#3266) david miller, 8 Jun 02
Hi Guys,
I feel I need to butt in on this one, I got rid of the viscous fan on our 2CT when I did the timing belt, basically couldn't be bothered to fart about putting all the gubbins back on, got an electric fan from a ROVER 216 EFI, made up the brackets for the top which go onto the mountings for the cowling, wired the fan, via a relay direct to the live feed to the starter solenoid, so it will work after the ignition is turned off, then I visited KENLOWE at their factory @ Maidenhead & purchased one of their fan control units, about £35.00, this goes into the top hose & controls the fan, it has a variable control on it, so you can make it come on sooner in the summer, later in winter if you like, it seems to work very well, I have deliberately set it to cut in quite early, and it stays on for a couple of minutes after switch off on hot days, to avoid static boils. We have just come back from a week on the Isle of Wight, up hill & down dale & on the motorway there & back the temperature gauge has just sat slightly below the middle. This has also freed up a useful bit of power, and let's face it, we need to free up anything we can. HTH Rob.
- (#3278) Rob Drinkwater, 8 Jun 02
my 86 master ace 4wd is very niosy inside the cock pit especialy at speed.to loud for my radio .the engine runs fine. it seems like that the sound proofing is poor.mabee its the viscose fan????? any ideas out there need to do some thing about it its spoiling a good vehical
- (#3956) Gavin, 24 Jul 02
Gavin are sure the timimng belt hasn't been overtightened as they make a loud noise - known as belt honk in the trade. It gets louder with engine speed too, check the tension by turning the belt a quarter of one turn at its longest span - you should be able to turn it by this ammount without excessive force. Worth a try
regards Jim
- (#3963) J ADGO, 25 Jul 02
Clearly these viscous couplings fail and a remedy is needed. Does anyone know what it costs to replace the failed item, presumably with a Toyota part, and how difficult it is?
Call me timid but several things put me off switching to electric
deciding which bits to use and sourcing them, deciding how to fit them and fitting them, then ending up with a fan which may be less gutsy, and less reliable overall, than a properly-working Toyota one.
The point has often been made that the original fan drains a lot of power from the engine so an electric one will improve our fuel economy. Yes it wastes some power when (!) the engine is cool and the electric one would be off, but (a) a beefy electric fan is going to use fuel/engine power via the alternator, belt & regulator - inefficiencies exist there, and are they up to it? - and (b) what's at stake here is reliability and driver confidence - fuel economy is a distraction, you can get that from driving style - though I grant you that driving style may also be a factor in overheating/undercooling.
- (#5187) Dave Mason, 22 Aug 02
Dave,
i'm sure i read somewhere on the site that someone had a viscous fan replaced £100 all in, sorry can't recall any more than that!
- (#5250) Paul Chapman, 22 Aug 02
Could someone tell me how all you people with overheating troubles drive?
I have had my '91 Townace auto 2 wheel drive for three years and 40,000 miles,with standard number plates,driving at 80 mph on motorways ,eight up,with no problems with overheating.I'm posting this as I'm afraid people coming to this site,with a view to purchasing one of these excellent people movers - with luggage space ,will be frightened off.
And yes I am still disappointed with the fuel consumption,and I had trouble with the starter circuit-I wish this site had existed then.
Thanks for an on the whole helpful site,long may it continue.
BTW I was disappointed not to get a mention for attending the townace meet ,in Devon.
Ray
- (#5251) Ray Cattle, 22 Aug 02
Same here , 2 years 8 up frequently drive at 80 even 90 !!
touch wood no overheating problems.
- (#5252) Ron Coe, 22 Aug 02
I thought i was running a townace engine with no probs - that is until i fitted a calibrated gauge from durite- i was shocked to find a tickover temp of 97 degrees after 15 mins - please dont rely on the toyota gauge - its the one thing that is out of charecter with toyota in as much as its not linear - it will tell u when it gets hot true - but by the time it tells you you could well be in the 100 degree plus range - and thats too hot for an ali head - if u want to know what fan to fit get a mark 2 astra diesel fan ..its a good size and there plentyful in the scrapyards too - hope this helps - lot of messing about but its worth it - a parting word too .. look at the postings from dave on thermostats - another essential mod in the fight against banana shaped heads
- (#5253) J Adgo, 22 Aug 02
Dave,
I have retained the viscous fan and have now completed the stat and Durite gauge fitting, as per David's experiments & postings. I checked, some time ago, and the viscous fan chamber/coupling, part No 16210-64020 (for 2C-T engines produced 1988-92)was priced at approx £100. I, too, am not entirely convinced that the electric fan conversion is the way to go although I appreciate that, for many owners, it might seem reassuring to be able to know (by sound or electronic indicator) that the fan is working. My V fan works well and does suit, I think, my sedate mode of motoring and, with the latest stat and gauge mods, I have an average running temperature of 85/90c.
My paranoia about the cooling on my Masterace (4WD) gives me some doubts about the continued efficiency of the silicon filled chamber (coupling) where the fluid has been sloshing backwards and forwards, to and fro, thousands and thousands of times over the last ten years so, fairly soon I will order and fit a new coupling. I don't think that the cost will be any more, and possibly will be a lot less, than obtaining and fitting an electric fan conversion. The HP losses are academic to me but, could be more important to a driver who regularly carries a full load or has to get about the country a lot quicker than I do. Anyway, when the new viscous coupling is fitted, I will post any improvements in running temperatures etc.
As an addition to my previous posting on the cooling mods, on a 100 mile motorway trip and some long hills, over this weekend, the Durite gauge never showed a temperature more than 90c (average speed 55/60 mph). Even "standing" in some dense London traffic, only showed 85/90 so, I think, my three 3mm holes in the new thermostat, was about right.
- (#5254) John Davis, 25 Aug 02
It's me again because I forgot what I think is a pertinent point re the viscous fan. This type of fan is always turning. At low radiator temperatures, the thermal detector, in the coupling body, will allow the fan some slippage but, ram air flow is still helped, even though the fan is turning more slowly relative to engine speed and coolant temperature. This might be better for our type of vehicle, with it's sensitive head, than the highs and lows of electric fan operation. (Just a thought).
Dave. You asked, in your posting, if the viscous coupling fitting is difficult. I don't think that it is because, when I did my cambelt change etc, I took the fan/coupling assembly off, of course, and I assume that it would only be a simple job to re-fit the fan to a new coupling. IHTH
- (#5255) John Davis, 25 Aug 02
Four nuts hold the viscous coupling onto the timing cover.
I am forming the opinion that the electric fan option is tricky- the fan I'm using (off a Corolla) just doesn't seem to move enough air. I see something of a thermal runaway at motorway speeds- it'll creep up over 100, but not up to the 105 needed for the a/c fans to turn on. It's very finely balanced- turn the heater on for ten seconds, and the temp drops to 95, before creeping back up over five minutes or so...
Or sit at 65 instead of 70 and it's not an issue...
Might have to bite the bullet and buy a Kenlowe or Pacet after all...
- (#5256) david miller, 25 Aug 02
David,
At last I'm gonna throw my penn'th into the ring, I notice you say that the corolla fan you have on yours doesn't seem to shift enough air, if the vehicle is stationary with the fan going, can you feel the hot air coming out to the side & rear of the car? is the fan the same height as the radiator, or smaller? With the Rover fan I firred on our Townie, the thing is the same diameter as the height of the rad, and with the fan going (even if you've switch engine off) the hot air can be felt to both sides & the rear of the vehicle, coming from underneath. I can only assume from this that it is quite effecient at shifting alot of air. It stays running for 2-4 minutes after switch off, depending how it's been driven & how hot a day it is. I may still add in a mechanical gauge & mount it somewhere. I would really like to monitor the temperature at more than one point, top of the neck on the head is fine, but elsewhere would be good as well, I might look into fitting temp senders to other points on the cooling system then wiring them, via changeover switches to one gauge, so you can monitor the differences. But so far so good with the change to electric fan, maybe I have it set too low, so it over cools, but that must be good really. Regards Rob.
- (#5257) Rob Drinkwater, 25 Aug 02
PS the link was wrong, try the link below.
- (#5258) Rob Drinkwater, 25 Aug 02
PS the link was wrong, try the link below.
- (#5259) Rob Drinkwater, 25 Aug 02
Rob, yes, plenty of flow, but it pales into insignificance compares to what the viscous fan is capable of. The fan is the same dia. as the height of the rad. But it doesn't draw that much current. I keep meaning to meter it up, to see how much the current reduces at speed amongst other things. Ray passed a relevany comment to me- he has a LR with kenlowes, and they take 25A each...
The standard gauge sensor location is under the inlet manifold, BTW. Do try fitting a gauge, it's the best £20 you could spend. And tell us what temperatures you are seing with your configuration.
- (#5260) david miller, 26 Aug 02
Update on that- my Corolla fan takes about 6A at full speed...
Time to try again, David...
- (#5261) David Miller, 26 Aug 02
So it sounds as if the coupling can be replaced without removing the drivers seat and floor pan, by unbolting the fan from the coupling and then the coupling from the pulley/bearing. Maybe John Davis
will soon confirm this.
Personally this, plus the thermostat triple bypass, appeals to me more than going electric.
The question remains whether to do it as a brute force precautionary measure, as you would change a cambelt, or whether there is a reasonable way to test the viscous coupling - by which I mean a reliable test that you only do every, say, 6 months and sudden failure is not an issue.
For example if you stopped in hot conditions and checked quickly would the fan feel locked almost solid to the pulley?
I've seen reference to a "thread test". Tying the fan to see if the thread breaks. But to be conclusive to have to know how strong is the piece of string and whether you have driven hard enough to create conditions where it should have broken.
Some owners say they can hear the viscous fan "cut in" but other things "cut in" on hot days - the aircon pump, the aircon fans, etc? - so it seems easy to be mistaken there.
Any comments?
- (#5262) Dave Mason, 26 Aug 02
David, I'd say that the corolla fan motor sounds a little weak, if it only draws 6 amps, rough estimate puts it at a 72 watt motor, the rover fan I have is 150watt with quite a pitch on the blades, hence it moves alot of air, I have also wired it with 40amp wiring & 20 amp fuse, although Rover run it with a 15 amp fuse. I am also thinking about Ray's Land Rover if it has 2 fans at 25 amps each, that means they are 300 watts each, total 600 watts, that's nearly a horsepower required from the alternator just to run the fans, but I suppose that's better than what the Viscous fan takes. I have yet to get the actual temp from mine, but it all seems fine at present.
- (#5263) Rob Drinkwater, 26 Aug 02
done some temp readings since fitting my astra fan to find qiute a fluctuation - seems to tick over at 85 then when moving its running at around 100 . i havent been on the motorway yet
so i dont know the temps for 70 mph but i think my fans no match for the viscous unit . so i might go for a twin pacet set up - what i will say is its very noticable the performance is a lot more lively since removal of the viscous unit
below is the pacet website link - so many fan options on it too but it looks like a qaulity product
http://www.pacet.co.uk/cooling.htm
jim
- (#5295) J Adgo, 29 Aug 02
"So it sounds as if the coupling can be replaced without removing the drivers seat and floor pan, by unbolting the fan from the coupling and then the coupling from the pulley/bearing. Maybe John Davis
will soon confirm this."
Yes Dave, I can confirm that this job takes less than an hour and the drivers seat & floor pan do not have to come out. I fitted a new viscous coupling yesterday and, even though I have modified the thermostat, I now see a slightly lower running temperature (app 5c) from the Durite gauge. Yes, if the engine is stopped,after a good run, and the fan "resistance" is tested, the coupling does show increased "drag". I did this test at a head temperature of 80c so, the rad temperature would be a bit lower. I assume that the coupling does, nearly, reach a lock up situation if the rad temperature (hot day, long hills etc)reaches somewhere near to 90/95c.
My old v couping was working OK I believe, but, for peace of mind I changed it. Here in the midlands then is a spare working coupling, if anyone has a completely failed unit.
- (#5356) John Davis, 30 Aug 02
all this talk of overheating is making my brain boil.i wonder if john davis could tell me how to fit a durite gauge to my 89 townace super extra 2wd td, and the best place from where i can obtain one. dave (mason)in one of your replies you mention 'other things' cutting in air con pumps etc (excuse me for being stupid here) but can these cut in even though the air con is not switched on. its just that i had a problem of what sounded like a fan switching on after i had been travelling down the motorway for an hour or so, no sign of overheating, no loss of water, no rise in the temp gauge (although i now realise that these dont give a true reading)and the air con was off. this has happend on about five occasions and at the time is very disconcerting. any suggestions will be gratefully received. thanks. john.
- (#5426) john elliott, 5 Sep 02
If it suddenly sounds like someone has replace you 2 litre diesel with a V8 engine, this is probably the voscous fan locking up & suddenly making the crank driven fan run at the motorway revs you are doing, this is quite noisy, and will normally result in you having to put your foot down harder to maintain speed, it takes quite a few Hp to move that much air. HTH Rob.
- (#5427) Rob Drinkwater, 6 Sep 02
Yes, I'll own up to querying which sound is the viscous-coupled fan "cutting in". I've never knowingly heard it, though Rob latest "V8" description is helpful and rings a vague bell. Also he says that it locks up suddenly whereas I'd, wrongly, thought it would be a smooth take-up. I wonder what the electric horizontal fans sound like when they switch up to full speed, and how to tell the difference?
Anyway, John E, you can find all the info from John D in the Cooling folder of Ace Answers under "Temperature gauge". You can see there too my investigation of the Toyota temperature gauge and a simple mod so that it will show the temperature rise that's causing the effect you heard.
And, no, you won't hear the aircon cutting in if you're not using it. But if you are, and have selected a sensible temperature on the climate control, then it has a mind of its own, starting and stopping as required to keep you cool enough without wasting any more engine power than necessary.
- (#5428) Dave Mason, 6 Sep 02
Dave, John Elliott says he has a SUPER EXTRA, so therefore is unlikely to have climate control, he will have basic manual air conditioning, therefore the air con compressor will run for as long as the A/C switch is pressed, but will cut out when the evaporator tempaerture reaches around 5 degrees C, this is to prevent the system freezing & cracking the evaporator, once the temp rises again, the comp will cut back in, if both front & rear systems are switched on, then it uses the valves to cut the flow to the evaporators, so the copmressor will tend to stay on more, same again if ice box in use, you can normally hear the comp relay under the dash click in & out. With climate control versions, the compressor will tend to run in the same way, cutting out if system is too cold, but heat variation is carried out by movement of the flaps to add in more or less heat from the heater matrix, something us poor Super Extra owners have to reach to the dash & do ourselves, it's such a chore. Hope this explains this, regards Rob. P.S. not sure if my two A/C fans have ever cut in at full speed, I have tested them by earthing out the switch wire on the engine, the cut in & are fairly noisy, but I have never noticed them cut in on their own.
- (#5450) Rob Drinkwater, 6 Sep 02
Yes, I overlooked that Super Extra won't have climate control.
WITH climate control the heat variation seems to be carried out by varying the blower speed as well (3 stages), usually reaching an equilibrium with the lowest speed when the compressor only cuts in for brief periods.
Going back to the noise from the viscous-coupled fan. If the coupling has failed and you're overheating then I presume that the horizontal fans will come on full. IF they also make a V8-ish noise then just hearing such a noise is not a good test whether the viscous coupling is OK. So it would be valuable to be able to distinguish them. Does anyone find the viscous-coupled fan starts up idling stationary, hot day? I'm surprised that it's usually discussed in the context of "full speed".
- (#5451) Dave Mason, 6 Sep 02
well folks, i'm now thoroughly confused. here i was all set to change to electric fan later in year/early next year. then i read this thread and dave masons, "what cooling probs", now i don't know which way to turn.
i have, as yet, had no cooling problems besides a leaky rad. now that i am aware of problem, i tend to moderate my speed, (90-100kph). viscous fan appears to be doing a good job.
is it worth changing for the extra power, which as dave says might not be as much as stated due to load on alternator? are we wise to tinker with a cooling system we know is delicate?
if i do go electric, what would be a good temp for fan to switch on? i was thinking of using a strap on water cylinder stat, ( for budget reasons),which is adjustable from 40c to 90c. i may put two on for a two stage fan, possibly set @ 50c and 80c.
or should i just leave it alone and enjoy driving it?
somebody please put me out of my misery!!
- (#5452) eddie arrowsmith, 6 Sep 02
Eddie, from personal experience I would go for electric fan, I haven't had any cooling system problems, but just felt it was a sensible thing to do whilst changing the timing belt, seeing as I already had all the fan/shroud/visco coupling etc off the car, so I did the conversion, the main thing was the increase in power, quite noticeable, the decrease in noise from the fan, and the fact that I can now adjust when it comes on & it also stays on after switch off. I think it is well worth doing, but then I had a fan in stock & it only cost me for the Kenlowe switch, plus I did it al myself, if you had to pay a garage to do it all, it would be a fortune. I can quite see why you would subscribe to the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' philosophy, especially if you've had no problems, but then neither did I have a cooling problem. Regards Rob.
- (#5453) Rob Drinkwater, 6 Sep 02
Its all still in the development stage eddie - me and Dave miller are trying out 2 different sorts of fans from pacet - im gonna go for a twin fan set up and daves using a single deep fan with a hefty CFM - were both on calibrated gauges and if i were u id watch this space - we could even end up over cooling it imagine that - would be a first eh
yours Jim
- (#5454) J Adgo, 6 Sep 02
When I started this thread I wanted to explore the wisdom, cost and time for just replacing the viscous coupling, either if it seemed to have failed or as a precautionary measure, as you would for a cambelt (if you're paying someone else to do it the cost of a cambelt is about the same as for a viscous coupling). Some useful information has come to light, thanks everyone, but I didn't choose my original subject heading carefully enough and we've drifted round, again, to Pacet fans!
I have just finished re-writing my editorial on "Cooling" for Ace Answers and will update it in a few days time. Researching the hundreds of contributions we've had I'm convinced that most useful thing to do is to improve your temperature gauge. Either fit a better one or do the simple mod I've described. That can tell you so much about whether your cooling system is doing something unusual and restores your confidence after reading all the frightening BoK postings.
- (#5455) Dave Mason, 6 Sep 02
I have the same over heating problem townace 1.8 c reg petrol as many orther owners but from what i can see the viscus fan will never solve the problem as well a saping valuable horse-power on 1.8 power unit so i purpose to go eletric pssible twin .
I've heard that that Demon tweeks make kit for the townace can anyone confirm this ?
- (#5500) Elwyn, 11 Sep 02
Better dealing with Pacet directly. But hold off for a week or two, their technical whizz is looking into things for us...
- (#5501) david miller, 11 Sep 02