OK folks. The head on my townie failed fairly catastrophically at the weekend. Cracks between the valves on all four pots, and a valve to prechamber crack on one. No indication of overheating until the system was empty, suprise suprise...
If it's a comfort, that's 50k miles since the last one, mostly fast, hard miles...
Question is this. How many of us have suffered from cooling problems, and of those, how many have had head failure? And are we all using the correct mix of coolant.
It's not just townies, Corollas and Carinas give the same problems, or so I'm told.
I ask about coolant because the first thing the breaker asked when I called for a head was just that. He feels that a system marginalised by scale could be the straw that breaks the camels back, if the system is undersized to begin with.
Does someone fancy trying WaterWetter in there system? it promises better heat transfer. Sounds like snake oil, but I hear good reports from the racing fraternity.

Comments?

- (#3506) David Miller, 25 Jun 02

We have just traded a 1989 Spacecruiser 2.0 petrol for a 1994 Townace 2.2 Diesel. I have no technical expertise, but in retrospect I note the following about the cooling problems on the Cruiser; and if someone uses the data to explain the problems and offer a solution, then there will be rejoicing in the camps of the just ...

Water loss
it would lose water. I wonder if the fact that the top-up reservoir cap did not fit very well allowed the top-up to evaporate dry too often, so that when the radiator cap comes to ask for its fluid back on cooling down, nowt there.

Heater
my wife feels the cold, and would remark that it took 20 miles for the heater to begin to work. Is the heater water on the same circuit as the engine cooling stuff? (Sorry if this is a silly question). If so, could it be empty while the rest is full? Is this an indication of trouble to come?

There was no leak that my garage man could find, and he did his honest best (he is sympathetic to impoverished family-van drivers). But then the radiator warning light failed, and it boiled almost dry twice ... odd noise from engine ... still no leak in system ... but nor did the heater work properly ...We decided that the jolly car had reached its best-before date.

Is there a way of getting any airlocks out of the system? Of checking that all is well so far? Of some magic jungle juice one can bung in the system to make it all well? I can not fix cars - any more than I could make my own shoes - but I can follow user's instructions, and would be grateful to you all if you could suss it out.

The Townie is wonderful - an answer to prayer for us - but I don't want to run into a set of potentially fatal problems with its cooling system.

Regards Tony

- (#3507) Tony McGough, 25 Jun 02

Tony - there is much detail to answer your query on the AceAnswers website.

David - re Waterwetter.

Ok I've read the bumf. Rather than reply direct, I would like to open this for discussion with others that have had first hand experience of overcoming cooling problems.

The way I see it is this.

1. Townies suffer badly from overheating and subsequent damage to cooling system components esp. the Head.
2. We are convinced by the auto media that we should use antifreeze year round because it contains anti-corrosion additives. Without it, pathways would gunge up.
3. Antifreeze increases viscosity and reduces cooling effectiveness over water only, which may be a major reason for the overheating problems we experience.
4. Using aircon can freeze the heater matrix if pure water is used as a coolant.
5. Redline Waterwetter purports to considerably increase the heat transfer of water and provides better anti-corrosion protection than antifreeze.

So ideally we want to use a coolant that maximises heat transfer, eliminates corrosion and doesn't freeze. Impossible!

The optimum would appear to be:

1. Use pure water as the base material (expensive yes but does anyone use a dehumidifier? The extracted water from that should be close to distilled).
2. Add Waterwetter as directed.
3. Use an absolute minimum of antifreeze. Redline recommend a 20% solution. I would advocate a more dilute solution. We don't get the hot weather they do in the States to warrant longterm use of the aircon in summer. Also doesn't the aircon blow at 5 degrees C? Why should it ever freeze? But to be on the safe side ..
Refresh the coolant in late autumn with a higher mix of antifreeze dependant on local climate ie. more dilute on coast and in south but never 50% as advocated on some instructions.

Yes I'll give it a go. Trouble is, it will be hard to gauge success as the pathways in my cooling system may well be on the way to being clogged. How best to desludge first?

Comments anyone?

- (#3508) Ian Dunse, 25 Jun 02

David. Bad luck but, (and this is no reflection, of course, on your technical or diagnostic abilities), could the system REALLY be empty before any warning ? Did the temp gauge stay in the middle or, did this happen, at a high speed and the remaining coolant was pushed out before the vehicle was stopped ? Have you any ideas on how the coolant escaped so quickly ?
You have now put the frighteners on me because I am paranoid about the cooling system on my Masterace.
I did do the complete head job 13,000 miles ago,(with much splendid advice from your goodself) ie, head skim, pressure test, new gaskets, bolts, thermostat etc and particular attention to all the block waterway passages and many flushes prior to completing the re-build. Also, the filler cap, suction and discharge tubes (to the make up tank)were all checked and renovated or replaced. As my vehicle is 4WD, and has the second radiator and the benefit of a greater coolant volume, I like to think that sudden overheating should not take place. I did notice that the "between cylinder" waterways were much reduced in size due to a build up of sludge/corrosion and I paid particular attention to opening these up. Also, since the re-build, I have run on an almost 30/70 mix of water(30%) and the newer type of high inhibitor content antifreeze. So far, I have had no problems whatever but, my motoring is fairly sedate these days and, probably, many other owners have to get about quite quickly and are cruising for fairly long periods at quite high speeds. I have retained the 100KPH warning bell and, even on motorways, it is rare, except when overtaking, that this gets activated. Also, I still run on the viscous fan which, in my opinion, is perfect for the vehicle, as long as it is checked on a regular basis.
I am prepared to be shot down in flames but, my opinion is that the Townace/Masterace vehicle is not suitable for high speed touring. The relatively small engine, coupled with the vehicle's and passengers weight, plus it's "brick like" aerodynamics, all make for too much engine stress if not handled carefully. As it's name indicates, it really is a "town" type vehicle and I think that some owners, who are, possibly, not mechnically minded, do expect V6 Galaxy performance.
Also, I do think that the routine checks, for some owners, get overlooked because of the mild amount of hassle in manipulationg the seats etc before gaining access to the engine bay. It's a joke in our family because I check the oil & water prior to driving to the corner shop but, it seems to be paying off.
"Water Wetter" ? This sounds like something which might have good cooling properties, especially if recommended by the racing fraternity. Is it chemical based to give better heat transfer rates and, is is available to the public because I have not seen any reference to it previously.

- (#3509) John Davis, 25 Jun 02

John, I am in the same boat as you

I do very high mileage per year (the van is now up to 207000 kms - bought it at 89000 kms). I travel at 100kph or below, using the dinger as a warning as they would do in Japan, so very rarely hear the electric fan cutting in (over 100kph and the electric fan is cutting in at least every 5 minutes for one minute at a time - I think that may be a good guide if the engine is being pushed)

I Recently replaced the rad cap and thermostat but I'm still getting a niggling problem with the van running too cool, which seems to be the opposite of everyone elses woes. It runs at the correct temp when drven normally, but cools down in stop/start traffic - this has only just started happening.

I run 4WD, manual transmittion, so I would guess the engine isn't working as hard as the auto option, but I do run with a twin-axle trailer running at up to 1000kgs at times on long journies, with no apparent problems.

The cap on the top-up reservoir does seem a little loose, but still working, so may look at replacing that too

- (#3510) skippy, 25 Jun 02

skippy, yes, you are proving something here which might be overlooked. i assume your vehicle is a diesel and you are finding that you have (almost) adequate power, with a more than a normal load, for average speeds.
do you think that these vehicles start to get too hot when the road speed increases and the already small "ram" cooling effect does not increase proportionally ? if someone has a dodgy viscous fan or, perhaps, a too high setting for the cutting in of an electric fan, damage gets done when the head starts to boil. your experiences with the electric fan cutting in repeatedly at over 100kpm, might bear this out.
by the way, there is no need for an airtight seal on the reservoir cap but, the integrity, or "airtightness" of the small suction hose, which passes through it, is vital for the syphoning back of coolant when the sytem cools down.
the cool running,in traffic, is a bit of a mystery but, as you have 4wd, and lots of water volume, perhaps
the main fan, and the auxiliary fans on top of the horizontal rad, are doing too good a job. i would suspect though that your thermostat might be at fault and a check could be made, after a short run, to see if the top and bottom hoses have much difference in temperature.


- (#3511) John Davis, 25 Jun 02

"Antifreeze increases viscosity and reduces cooling effectiveness over water only, which may be a major reason for the overheating"
Ian, another "frightener" to increase my paranoia re cooling problems. In another post I mention that I am running, nearly, on undiluted antifreeze. Are you (or anyone) able to say if the reduction in cooling, due to the viscosity, is dramatic or, is it only marginal.
I need to know quickly. I have to go to the local Post Office to collect my pension and, as it's at least one mile away, I am tempted to drain it all out first !!!

- (#3512) John Davis, 25 Jun 02

Well, I'm nearly rebuilt, and have been doing much thinking. Not come to many conclusions though.

Ian, if you want to try the waterwetter, you might want to do an acid flush first to descale as much as possible

John, toyota gauges seem to hover around the centre point regardless of condition. My wife's Corolla is the same. O mine, the gauge will only veer to the right when the system is really hot. Yes, the sender is OK. I'm trying to get hold of a Tim electrical gauge, it has a linear response from 60-120c or so., so I can see exactly what is happening.

According to my cds, the H/G design has changed at least nine times in twenty years. Perhaps they haven't got it right yet. I do note that the water feed holes in the gasket are stepped in size from the water pump end. Maybe someone made them a bit small...

- (#3513) david miller, 25 Jun 02

John

Redline claim that a 50% glycol based antifreeze solution will reduce the heat exchange efficiency by 30% as compared to water only - if I read it correctly. I only skimmed it. Take a look yourself at redlineoil.com. It all sounds very plausible to me. Having said that, I was almost taken in by their claims about their lead replacement supplement. Further investigation changed my mind. However, I'm prepared to give Water Wetter a trial. I've already contacted the uk agent for outlets. I'll let you know. Meanwile go and collect your pension, you should be alright, just don't let it out of 1st gear (joke).
Ian

- (#3514) Ian Dunse, 25 Jun 02

John

Yes, mine is a diesel, and I have adequate power up to 100 kph - anything over that and it feels like I'm decidedly pushing it (after many years of long distance truck driving, I'm used to mixing it in the lower lanes - and the difference of 10-20 mph over a long journey has a surprisingly small effect on the time taken to travel - try it)

I know of an owner who repeatedly drove at 90-100mph everywhere and litteraly boiled the motor dry - luckily it was under warrantee - but these motors are not designed for this type of prolonged speed I'm sure.

The thermostat was only changed last week, so I have no idea why it's suddenly decided to run cool in traffic - over the last 3 years the temp guage has never ever moved from just below centre, in all types of traffic

- (#3517) skippy, 25 Jun 02

Dear All,
Let's put my MOTOR TRADE hat on now, to go through a few points made by some of you.
Ian, the increase in viscosity caused by the addition of 'Ethylene Glycol' antifreeze/summer coolant is supposed to help heat transfer from the metal of the engine to the metal of the radiator. But there are now better coolants than Glycol. Comma have just produced 'red' & 'green' xtreme coolants which do increase heat transfer, and cooling efficiency, as well as protection.
The use of a flushing agent will help to get the rust & silt out of the system, before refilling with a mixture of 50% Distilled water & 50% coolant.
Touch wood, we have had no troubles with ours, and as you are aware I have converted over to electric fan, this appears to work well the gauge never going above half in any conditions.
It is woth remembering that the 'radiatior' lamp on the dash is false, it only tells you that the coolant has gone from the expansion tank. If you have lost the actual cooling system coolant then you won't know until the gauge goes up & up.
I am now thinking that I may incorporate the fans on the horizontal rad into the circuit with the vertiacl rad fan, so they also run at full speed a bit earlier than the 103 degrees at the engine that turns them on as standard.
I guess that the best bet is to clean the cooling system thoroughly, fit electric fans, set to come on at fairly low temperatures, fit override switches in the interior to switch the fans manually. Maybe even fit an additional temperature gauge in the cab to monitor what is going on more closely.
The next thing to look at is probably oil, heat in the engine is created by two things, firstly the heat created by burning the fuel, only a fraction of the energy released by burning the fuel is converted into pushing the car forward, the rest is lost as heat, noise & light. The other thing that creates heat, is friction. So reduce friction, use a quality oil, preferably synthetic or semi-synthetic. These also have improved heat transfer back to the sump, remember most 2ct engines also have an engine oil cooler fitted, so this will help get rid of some heat, adding something like 'slick 50' or 'molyslip' may help, but I'm not necessarily advocating anything like this.
Probably the thing that will make more heat than anything else, is a badly tuned diesel engine, if you are pumping too much fuel into the combustion chamber then you will get more heat, more smoke & less power, do this for long enough & you could create overheating. Running the injection too lean could at least get rid of the smoke, but also could lead to too much heat from the burning reaction, again possible conditions for an overheat.
Another point to make is that my electric fan work with the engine off, this means it will run for a few minutes after switch off, to try to prevent a 'static' boil.
An interesting point raised by John Davis, do the 2WD models seem to suffer more than the 4WD models, with their larger water capicity? It would be interesting to hear from 4WD owners who have suffered this problem.
I too am cautious & often check the coolant level.
Regards Rob.

- (#3518) Rob Drinkwater, 25 Jun 02

"Tim electrical gauge, it has a linear response from 60-120c or so., so I can see exactly what is happening".

Thanks for the comments David and, for the above reference. I have thought for some time that the existing temperature gauge is, almost, "all or nothing"and something which might give a more accurate, or progressive reading should be the answer. Perhaps you could let us have more information on the "Tim" unit if you do learn more.
As it happens, I am currently toying with fitting another temperature sensor at the head. The sensor comes from a scrap vehicle radiator and, originally, switched an electric cooling fan. I intend to fit it in an aluminium "spacer" mounted between the coolant filler neck flange and the cylinder head, and will wire it to show a warning light on the dash. I intend to have a button operated "test" circuit and am hoping that it's switching temperature is a little above the average temperature at which the hot coolant leaves the head.
If not, perhaps I can baulk it's operation, electronically in some way and any advice from the electronic wizards would be more than welcome.

- (#3524) John Davis, 25 Jun 02

Had the same problem on the cruiser 6 months ago. The cap had badly worn around the seal. Luckily I limped home before any damage was done. I replaced the cap with an ordinary Q & H 0.9 pressure an all fine since. Do I assume that the problems you are having with specialist pressure caps on Townies etc do not apply to 3Y Spacecruiser petrol engines?

- (#3526) Phil Pearce, 25 Jun 02

The problems with cooling are very well described at you. Maintaining Master Ace the arrow(pointer) of temperature costs(stands) as driven on a mark hardly more to the left of middle. Irrespective of in a fuse, or on heat go, with low speed on rural roads. The basic source of cooling - âåíòèëëÿòîð on a viscous wedge! Visually it(him) to not check up, but just it(he) can not be untwisted up to working revolutions! Second - cleanliness of system of cooling (absence superfluous in a radiator), pure(clean) channels of the engine. Third - serviceable thermostat. Fourth - highway without outflow, corrosion. In fifth - the Absence íàêèïè in a fuse (cover) of the valve (where is filled in antifreeze). Sixth - absence of break of gases in channels of cooling (absence of bubbles in a throat of a gulf of antifreeze). I hope at you a pure(clean) radiator and serviceable pump! As the absence of superfluous friction in the engine, which can become an additional source of heating!

I hope, completely has illuminated a problem! And that depends on a type of a liquid here a little (only absence of corrosion at times, yes change of a point of freezing)!
At you expression " bus as a brick " and at us - " bus as an iron ", Hi, Hi!!! A problem with aerodynamics, I go 100-110 kms / ÷ with a bell (at absence of a counter wind), differently - 90 kms / hours.

Good luck to all visitors of your site and you personally for development!

adminobl@oblsud.tsl.ru (the problems at me with English are not present, write) Dmitrij, Blagoveschensk...

- (#3529) Dima Gryazev, 26 Jun 02

Yes, Phil, that rad cap is specific to 2c diesels...
John, re the gauge, the Tim gauge is the cheapest electrical gauge you can buy- it's under £30 inc. sender and adaptors. I have mapped the response of the standard sensor and it's rather logarithmic- 45ohms at boiling, 700 or so at ambient. Problem is it's response has a knee point at about 100c... The red portion of the gauge is 130c or so, the bottom 40c or so. But the gauge will get from half to 3/4 in 10c. So if the gauge has gone up, the fans (4x4) are on already- 105c. The aircon cuts off at 115c to save the engine... But remember that the 'stat, on the return line is trying to run the engine at86-90...
The sensor for the gauge is in the lower half of the head, the fan sensors in the outlet neck. I've tried putting the gauge sensor there, but little odds, just reads consistently higher

- (#3534) david miller, 26 Jun 02

I have now experienced the same on our 4WD 2C-T Auto.
We have achieved approx 400 miles per week for one year, but then the head leaked and finaly failed with cracks as described above. The engine is currently in rebuild having had 10 thou taken off the block.
Temperature gauge only shifted above center when water was already lost.

I will do several things when the van is returned:-
1) use Slick 50.
2) use WaterWetter (if approved & I can find it)
3) use my temperature probe/multimeter to test real engine temperature vs gauge under normal usage.
- (#3537) Ray, 26 Jun 02

Ray,
So you have had a 4WD go bang on you, so that would throw my theory that the 4WD was less prone to the problem due to larger coolant capacity, tell me, if the cracks were in the head, presumably leading to either having the head welded, or a new head, why was it necessary to take ten thou off the block?, had the resulting gas flow erroded the block? I think that the key thing may be to overcool the vehicles, hence I have set the electric fan to come on very early & run on after switch off, maybe I chould consider a second fan. I also check the coolant level very regularly, but this it seems may not be enough. I the fans for the horizontal rad into the new circuit that I have added to create more cooling effect whilst running. I am really trying to ensure this terrible fate that others have encountered doesn't hit our wagon. Regards Rob.

- (#3588) Rob Drinkwater, 1 Jul 02

Rob

We can skirt around the problem by adding extra fans, snake oil and the like but I think John and Skippy have the right attitude. These vans aren't built for speed. Both David and I have 4WD versions and both of us appear to have thrashed the proverbials off them. Consequently we have both suffered with overheating problems, David twice in as many years by the sound of it. I've also recently suffered an expensive suspension job, probably down to driving too fast over Sheffield's shite roads. So now I'm taking a leaf out of John and Skippy's book - from now on I'm driving carefully, keeping under 3000 rpm and regularly checking that coolant level.

Ian

- (#3594) Ian Dunse, 2 Jul 02

I've so far had over 3 years trouble free driving (just the normal wear and tear items to change)

The van has now clocked up an impressive 208000 kms

what sort of mileage was yours when the head went?

- (#3621) skippy, 3 Jul 02

88k kms

- (#3622) Ian Dunse, 3 Jul 02

about 100k, and then 193k...
All apps. of the 2c give head problems, they just happen earlier in the townie

- (#3624) david miller, 3 Jul 02

Just picked the Towny up after the engine overhaul £650+VAT.

Re
Rob Drinkwater comments above:-
I believe the block had suffered excessive wear & caused the water loss which resulted in the head overheating and finally cracking. The wear is presumably from the abrasion due to the difference in the heat expansion of the Iron block and the Ally head.
Remember also that the engine will have cycled hot/cold thousands of times since manufacture over many years. During all this, the molecules jiggle around looking for the most comfortable place to sit, hence some slight distortion is bound to occur.

As well as adding snake oil, water wetter, fans etc etc, I guess the very best solution is the careful driving option. However, I see no harm in helping it along with additional preventative measures wherever possible.

- (#3706) Ray, 8 Jul 02

If you can not find the '' water wetter'' try your local caravan dealer acc' shop..

- (#3767) paul morgan, 11 Jul 02