Ray Cattle and Ron Coe have got a point (viscous fan coupling discussion). What are the big discussions since this bulletin board was restarted? Thermostat, temperature gauge, airflow/number plate, viscous coupling, and headgasket. Yes visitors to this site, whether with a view to purchasing an 'ace or already owning one, will see that there is a frightening cooling problem. So why start another thread? Well I'm hoping to measure the problem as a separate matter from discussing the solution.

Like Ray and Ron, and (hundreds of?) others, I have no sign of overheating and would hate to discourage a potential owner. But Ron's "touch wood" reveals that we do all share this problem - even if it's only a lack of confidence every time we drive up a long hill rather than the clouds-of-steam version of it. We don't know if we've done all the sensible things to prevent overheating. We don't know what early warning signs to watch for. At least we've got some owners generously (thank you) sharing their experiences of experimentation, and of renovating damaged cylinder heads.

It would add insult to injury to rush to quiz the occasional victims about their driving style or whether they had been negligent about checking their coolant level etc, or the exact sequence of overheating symptoms. They are more concerned with getting a proper repair at a reasonable price.

Can any former victims now shed some light by admitting that they often exceed 3500rpm (80mph in the cruise), or they had neglected to check the coolant level for a couple of months, or they ignored the standard temperature gauge rising for an hour, etc?

Would someone like to comb through Ace Answers and identify the overheating disasters on record? I suspect there may be as few as 15. We could at least have a posting here to see how many there are and have someone nominated to follow up with more research by email. This is something I would like to do, as editor of Ace Answers, but I know it'll be ages before I can get round to it.

- (#5223) Dave Mason, 26 Aug 02

I have to concur with dave, I too have had no cooling system problem, I only fitted the electric fan because I can't stand the fan noise from viscous/fixed fan units, I have fitted an electric fan on every vehicle I have owned with a crank driven fan, either because of noise, MPG improvement or power improvement, in the case of the Townie conversion we got all 3 improvements. The fact that there is a known issue with the 2CT engine didn't really matter, I just did the conversion as a natural add on to doing the cambelt a few months ago. So I too wouldn't want anyone to be put off these great vehicles just because they were scared of an overheat, how many other cars do we see on the hardshoulder every bank holiday, stem belching from under the bonnet. I think we have all become car drivers, as opposed to motorists, we are so used to jumping into our executive express mobile & driving it without thought between, and often beyond services that we have forgotten that certain vehicles need some TLC, a simple check of the oil, water & other fluid levels on a regular basis works wonders. Let's face it, this type of problem was the downfall of cars such as the Dolomite Sprint & Triumph Stag.
One thing I have been asking myself though is whether the overheat is actually cause of the head warp, or effect. Some have said they have cracks in the head, has this been metal fatigue which has resulted in the boil up, but not been caused by the boil up. Extensive research would need to be done to find this out. I suspect the only way we would know, is to strip down, check out, rebuild & then test to destruction a 2CT lump, anyone want to help me do it? Has anyone ever spoken to Toyota about the problem? what is their line if so? Rob.

- (#5224) Rob Drinkwater, 26 Aug 02

Some very good points Dave and we don't want to frighten possible owners before they even purchase their vehicles.

I had 2 years without any form of overheating or coolant loss until the engine was rebuilt and my over heating era, lasting 7 months, began. I went through the tests and possible cures which didn't solve the problem or point to a problem so I changed items one by one and logged the when and where the problems occurred to find a pattern.

I have now been running without any form of loss or overheating for 3 months......a success I think, but I'll only whisper it.

As far as the renovations are concerned, has anybody got a step by step, with pictures approach to the alterations.

- (#5225) Mark, 26 Aug 02

Incidentally, I run 50-50 ethylene glycol /water coolant. Fully Synthentic 5w/40 engine oil, which is changed along with the oil filter at 5000Km (approx 3000 Miles). I have the standard thermostat, original rad cap, but with the fan conversion. I don't drive very gently, I often use the gearbox as a manual, use the revs as necessary, and regularly cruise 80-90Mph. Even occasionally to the last number on the dial. So if anyone was heading for a blow up, it's me (Oh **** I've done it now). All I'm trying to say here is I've done everything I can do to keep the beast cool, so I see no reason to drive like a little old lady (sorry to any little old ladies out there), whilst someone did say that they are a TOWNACE, not a MOTORWAY ACE, I see no reason to have to keep the revs below 3500rpm, and treat her with kid gloves. Regards Rob.

- (#5226) Rob Drinkwater, 26 Aug 02

Head cracking and warpage is not confined to the townie, all app's of the 2C have issues with it. Even the shiny new Avensis before it went D4-D!
Also, one of europe's most popular diesels, the Peugeot XUD will crack end warp heads in the same way.
It's the downside of indirect injection diesels. A lot of combustion heat and pressure is concentrated inside the pre-chamber in the head.
I certainly wouldn't want to put anyone off buying a townie, I'm far too fond of mine... But this IS a problem. Remember also the petrol ones give head problems too...

- (#5227) david miller, 26 Aug 02

Hi there,i thought i was the only one with a problem till i read this website.I bought a townace with a 2y motor[1800 cc,petrol]it overheats only when im doing more than 3000rpm constantly[on the motorway}Around town in heavy traffic,no problems at all,the temperature gauge actually drops a bit,with not a sign of overheating.Why does this happen? Regards Chris

- (#5285) chris bosman, 27 Aug 02

OK Dave, you asked for true histories...

I bought Townie in 97 (IIRC), from an outfit called Longbridge (who no longer sell Townies AFAIK).

After my test drive I commented on what I now know to be the critical coolant level warning light. "No problem - I'll just top it up, they always evaporate a bit when they've been standing for a while" says the nice salesman. Reasonable explanation thinks me, in my Townie naivete.

About a year after that, and a bit of topping up myself (and a trip back to the garage, who insisted "It pressure tests OK, nothing to worry about"), I'm driving in France and the temp gauge shoots into the red. Sudden stop and top up gets us home, although a persistent rusty leak gives me an uneasy feeling.

A few months after that, and an application of (please Steve, you're splitting my sides) Radweld, we're at the bottom of the hill in Clovelly and it goes colossally hot again. This time the rad's got a hole the size of Jupiter in it and we have no option but to limp home hot (to our holiday cottage) putting whatever water in we can find. Not surprisingly, it won't hold a rad full of water for more than 5 miles, and we have to get recovered home to Kent. Where the repair bill comes to £1000+ for new rad, head skim, gasket etc. Still, we love our Townie enough to pay up without grimacing too much.

A couple of years later, after a few thousand miles slugging about down on power with an engine that sometimes sounds like it's had a bag of nails for breakfast (when cold), our poor old motor dies again, not heating related this time, but the master pulley falls off the crank end and chews it all up. Finally it's new engine time, and we get a European spec 2CT from a Camry, which takes a bit of fiddling to get all the belt driven stuff working again, but now goes OK, sounds much smoother and (touching wood again) does not overheat. Expensive but (just) worth it, as our kids have by now trashed the interior so much that we can't really sell it on to some poor sucker for any kind of serious money!

SO, to get to Dave's original point, I've definitely fallen into all the traps you can - bought a dog from the off, haven't maintained it religiously (gets a full service with oil/filters once a year for its MOT and then top up oil as necessary between times). It doesn't get thrashed though - my Mrs will sometimes get biffy and rev it to 4500 when anxious to overtake a truck going uphill, but I'm more patient and keep it where I can't hear the engine over the wind noise. Also, the thought of taking evasive action at 90 mph in a Townie does not bear thinking about
(and it does happen out of the blue - the other day I was on M25 and a German truck swung in on a Honda Civic, smacked it off the road and it ended up on its roof. All about 100 yds in front of me. Driver and passenger both climbed out fortunately; I thought they were dead when I saw the car).

I've always been aware of the temp gauge and tried to take appropriate action when it misbehaved (yeah yeah, they all chortle), but have in the past topped up with Kentish tapwater (99% calcium carbonate), neglected antifreeze and coolant, put cheap TD oil in, usually 15W40, only ever as top up (ever tried to change oil with on-street parking on a busy road on a hill?) and have generally been the model Townie-killer.

I think only one engine's pretty good going really, hehehehe.

- (#5286) SteveFE, 27 Aug 02

Glad to finally hear something positive about townies and over heating. Two months before I bought my townie I just knew it was going to overheat ( had been reading the postings )after i drove for more than an hour. I was surprised to hear that the guy I bought it from had just made a 10 hour trip in it. When I asked him if it ever overheated, he looked at me like I was crazy. I have also talked to other townie owners in Russia that didn't even know they had a " heating problem " and had never had a problem. I'm convinced that if I do my part by taking care of the vehicle and do not drive like a Red Neck from Louisiana ( I'm from La. ) I shouldn't have a problem.

- (#5287) mervin, 27 Aug 02

Now you've scared me David, my company car has an XUD motor (Peugeot) still if that blows to **** at least my company will have to pay. I agree that this is probably why all the manufacturers have gone direct injection/common rail on the diesels, it does make the head's basic structure stronger. I suppose that the only saving grace is that the 2CT still suffers in other cars. Would we all be better looking at replacing with another Toyota lump, if we get a blow up, I am lead to believe that most of the RWD Toyotas have the same engine to 'box flanges, so perhaps I could go for a 3Litre TD from a land cruiser (lol). But it does make you wonder, after all I did once put a Renault 2.6 V6 in the back of a Fiat 126, so anything will go, if you make up some mountings. Regards Rob.

- (#5288) Rob Drinkwater, 27 Aug 02

Are the reported overheating problems mainly confined to the 4wd? My 2wd Townace has only had one occasion where the temp gauge moved beyond the halfway point and I was towing a caravan up a long hill on a hot day. Could we in future be specific in the version of the vehicle when discussing overheating? It seems odd that some users never experience overheating while with others it seems the norm.

- (#5312) jeff willcott, 29 Aug 02

4WD is irrelevant Jeff. It's switchable anyway so in most cases hardly gets used. The issue is with the cooling system which is the same in both drive versions. IMO it's not up to the job and those owners that haven't experienced the dreaded head problem have been lucky. I sincerely hope it doesn't happen to you. Meantime I'll continue to nurse mine and keep the revs down. If nothing else I get better mpg!

- (#5313) Ian Dunse, 29 Aug 02

The 4WD have a higher ground clearance and have the front diff, both of which may have an affect on what air flow there is. The Ace series started life as RWD petrol engine, the versions that have appeared since may be pushing other "standard" parts to and beyond the limit. I know that the difference between the 2.0 ltr Spacecruiser and the Diesel Townace are many fold, but the radiator is in the same place, of the same size (with the aircon in front of it), and with the same fan.
It would be nice to know if the problems were there when the buses were new, any Japanese readers care to comment.

- (#5314) clive, 29 Aug 02

"It would be nice to know if the problems were there when the buses were new"

My view is that Toyota designed the Ace type vehicle with a view to their operation within fairly defined limits. The 100KMP national speed limit in Japan, the name "Townace" indicating a suburban type usage vehicle, and a fairly small engine, sometimes having a load of 7/8 people to pull, all indicate the vehicle being aimed at a particular sector of the market. The imports are, sometimes, 10/12 years old and are now operating at much faster top speeds and, much higher mileages. Also, in my opinion, motorists, generally have got used to not lifting the bonnet between services (BOK members excepted of course ???) and the minor irritation of the seat movement and floor lifting etc, which is neccessary with the Townace just to check the levels, leads, I think, to some complacency and, eventually, to major problems.
If the vehicles are used carefully, and have regular maintenance, I feel that most problems can be minimised. It's worth remembering that other vehicles also have some major problems and, on another site I read of a Rover having overheating problems, leading to cylinder head ruin, resulting in bills in excess of £2000.

- (#5315) John Davis, 29 Aug 02

Youre right about the Rover engines being a problem and because they are all alimunium and the head bolts also go all the way through the block and holds the mean bearing caps on(and provides rigidity) they are usually regarded as beyond repair unlike our engines. Also the rover engines have a rad that rots in no time, not many get to 12 years old i bet
Jim

- (#5414) J Adgo, 3 Sep 02

could someone tell me why when driving in town the van is ok but when i drive on the motorway it overheats there is nothing worse than driving and watching the temp gauge the garage said it could be the head gasket how can i tell if it is the head gasket i was on my way to cornwall the other day and it was smoking under the seat the rac towed me to this garage that is where they told me about the gasket i belive they r saying that cause they knew i needed to get home they said it would cost me £500.00 to do please help me find out if it is the head gasket before i take it to the garage

- (#5943) DEREK, 26 Oct 02

Derek,
Let the engine cool off. Take the rad/filler cap off. Top up the coolant level to the filler neck. Leave the cap off, start the engine and watch, at low to slightly increased revs, how the coolant behaves. If the coolant bubbles gently, things should be OK. If there is a lot of turbulence and the water is pushed out of the filler, it might indicate that cylinder pressure is passing over into the coolant waterways and that the fault is, indeed a failed head gasket.
Your symtoms can also indicate a fan (is it the original viscous unit?) failing. Drive with the passenger seat up and see if the fan stop turning with increased road speed. Also, the thermostat should be checked for effective opening as the coolant reaches around 80c.

- (#5944) John Davis, 26 Oct 02

I have just brought a '91 2wd 2litre Turbo, i gave it a good look over and then drove it approx 200km home. The temp gauge never once rose over half way along the journey. Average speed was 70mph...(bing bing bing -i gotta (un)fix that bell!) weather wasn't the best, bit of rain average temp for autum.

I am greatful for all the advice on this site, and shall certainly use it, therefore looking after my liteace -regular checks topups etc...

- (#5945) NiK C., 26 Oct 02