today my supa extra 2L td 4wd "91" failed its mot due to the above, the mechanic said it could possibly be old dot 3,or the master cylinder,so this afternoon i have pressure bled the system including the load valve and checked each wheel/brake for leaks but everything seems fine.has anybody got any more ideas before i have a go at changing the master cylinder ,i have searched the bok and it seems that other people have changed the m/c to no avail so i didnt want to remove the dashboard ect unless i realy have to.my symtoms are with engine off applying firm pressure to brake pedal my foot gradually sinks but have not lost any brake fluid in the 6 months i have owned it.any help would be greatfully received.ps,the the brake performance test passed?

- (#6810) gary hope, 18 Jan 03

I would advise you to remove the rear hubs and examine the shoes. Replace them if they are well worn. If not, get a screwdriver and "click" the automatic shoe adjusters (one per wheel) 1 click at a time as you keep trying the hub / shoe fit. You will reach a point when the hub will not go over the shoes. Now carefully back off the adjuster a little. Do both rear wheels and then with the hubs on, depress the footbrake a few times then pull the handbrake a few times. Recheck shoe clearences if necessary. Wear a dust mask for safety and make sure you are not tempted to depress the footbrake with the hubs removed! You will need a suitable bolt to draw off the hub. This procedure cured the same symptom on my Masterace..

- (#6811) Ray Ambler, 18 Jan 03

When you have the rear wheels and hubs off, I believe a 10mm bolt is the correct size, check around the ends of the cylinders for signs of a slight leak.

I found originally that my Masterace had a siezed cylinder that I freed when I changed the rear shoes. After only a few miles I developed a rumble when I braked heavily. After close examination I discovered that the cylinder I had freed has applying the brake but not allowing the cylinder to return making my rear hubs heat up.

After changing this my brakes were cured. Possibly not the problem in your case but goes to show how the smallest of things can cause problems in the brake system.

- (#6812) Mark, 19 Jan 03

sounds to me like you actually have two problems with your brakes, the excessive travel is most likely to be caused by the reasons that Ray & Mark have covered, IE rear brakes out of adjustment, so I won't go over that ground again. But the more worrying one is that you say that the pedal goes down gradually, you say this is with the engine off. Try doing the same, but pump the brakes a few times, to empty the servo of vacuum. This done, try pressing the pedal again, hold it there, but vary how hard you push, if it still drops to the floor eventually, then the master cylinder is most likely faulty, after all, if the pedal is going down, and you are definately not losing any fluid, there is only one place it can be going & that is past the seals in the master cylinder. You may find if you push hard, the pedal doesn't drop as readily as if you apply light pressure, this is because you are pushing the lips of the seals out harder when you push hard. HTH Rob.

- (#6813) Rob Drinkwater, 19 Jan 03

Gary,
If you try all the good advice already given,and the problem persists, I would say that you do have get at the master cylinder seals. Your master cylinder is likely to be around 11 years old and, although you mention a "pressure bleed", the pedal has been to the floor and the master cylinder piston has been to the bottom of the cylinder. This part of the cylinder bore is likely to be quite rough and corroded due to the fact that the piston has not, in general use, kept this part of the bore clean and polished. I suspect that the master cylinder seals are now damaged and, unfortunately, it looks as if you will have to turn your attention to the m/cylinder seals. It is a fairly common problem (not just with our vehicles) that old master cylinders have a rough section at the bottom of the bore, and full depression of the piston does, in many cases, tear the seals.

- (#6814) John Davis, 19 Jan 03

thank you all for your help,today i have replaced the rear shoes and checked the wheel cylinders all is well, but the peddel is the same, so i will have to do the master cylinder after all,can i get just the seals or will i have to replace the whole m/c ? thank you all for your your time,I still think these cars are great!

- (#6815) gary hope, 19 Jan 03

Gary,
The CD shows a master cylinder seal kit, Part No 04493-28060 which, I am sure, will cover your model. The bare master cylinder, without seals, connections etc is 47201-28150. With these numbers, your local Toyota dealer should be able to advise further or, with the seal kit number, or the old seals for comparison, a good motor factor might be able to cross reference suitable seal numbers. Check in Ace Answers as there is a lot of information there.

- (#6816) John Davis, 20 Jan 03

Although cylinder repair kits were very much the norm some 20 years ago, these days you are sometimes just as well buying a new complete one. Often the barrel is scored, if this should be the case then you will have wasted your money on the overhaul kit. Obviously the best way is to strip it then order the kit or full cylinder as appropriate. Trouble is it means your vehicle is off the road while you wait for parts.

- (#6817) Ian Dunse, 20 Jan 03

i have now removed the m/c and striped it ,the cylinder is in vgc. I had no luck in finding the seal kit at the motorfactors(tried 4 & took old unit for comparison)but i have now ordered it from toyota £68.64 thanks for the part no,they said it should be here in the morning,not bad for toyota.hope this solves my problems. i will let you know how i get on thanks again....gaz

- (#6818) gary hope, 20 Jan 03

"but i have now ordered it from toyota £68.64"

Gary, could you tell us what you are getting for this money. Is it the complete seal kit or, a bare master cylinder complete with seals?

- (#6819) John Davis, 20 Jan 03

for my money i get :- brake m/cyl kit.not the cylinder.

- (#6884) gary hope, 20 Jan 03

hi its me again,i have fitted the new m/c seals but am having trouble bleeding the system , am i doing it right? NSR/OSR ,load valve,then NSF/OSF.I have tried presure bleed and manual pumping have put aprox 2litres of fluid through the system but am still getting bubbles dont know what else to try? please help!

- (#6885) gary hope, 22 Jan 03

Manual says load valve last, but shouldn't make any difference in the townie, the reservoir is so high. The manual does however reccommend pre- bleeding the master cyl on the bench before fitment.

- (#6886) david miller, 23 Jan 03

Had similar problems with my old Space after a M/C replacement and with other vehicles with long pipe runs. I found pumping the same line for longer was required and going around several times. Also cracking the nipple open a bit wider allows you to push more fluid through (and air), trial and error I'm afraid. Uses loads of fluid but you get there in the end.
- (#6926) Ian Dunse, 23 Jan 03