(Home) Turbo replacement

I've got a 1990 2L 4WD TurboDiesel Materace. Recently during/after a very heavy tow I noticed very poor performance uphill, a whining noise, and sometimes black smoke when I come to a stop (the turbo lights come on with ignition but now not at all while driving). I discovered the oil level was low.
I dicovered this brilliant website, read the postings, bought the manual and have removed the seat, plate etc to have a look. I have got as far as removing the air cleaner hose from the turbo and note that the blades are moving freely so can I take that as a good sign? The blades are covered in oil - is that a bad sign? There is oil at the cylinder head pipe into the air cleaner hose. The turbo doesn't look much like the picture in the manual - I'm not even 100% certain which end I'm looking at?
Does anyone have any pointers to help me?

- (#7850) Peter Dawson, 29 Mar 03

blades are free= good. some oil in the intake = normal (it gets there from the crankcase ventilation system)

If you've stripped that far, how much play is there in the turbo? if there's way too much, the wheels could contact the housings, causing a squealing noise. The other cause for such a noise would be a boost leak, and that could cause also your lack of power and lights not coming on...

- (#7851) david miller, 30 Mar 03

David
Thanks for helping out.
I checked the play and I thought it was probably excessive i.e. >>0.13mm. If I lean it over one side I got some drag on rotating the blades (touching the sides?). As well as causing the noise would this also cause the sudden & definite loss of power? Could this have been aggravated by the heavy load, lack of oil - I mean it was a definite switch from working to not working not just a gradual loss of performance over time although I may have had the orange light come on intermittently in the past but I hadn't realised it was bad news until now. Do you think this means I definitely should change the turbo? Can I repair it, change the bearings or something? Are there other checks I should make before I trash another turbo (you mentioned the possibility if boost leakage)? When I make the checks is it alright to just have the air hose butt up against the inlet/outlet - I just cannot get the hose on! There's a plastic collar inside each end of the hose - is there a knack to this?

- (#7852) Peter Dawson, 30 Mar 03

Yes, boost leakage is a definite possibility, and it might be as simple as a "vacuum" hose blown off- check the hose from inlet manifold to injection pump and boost light switches.

Hang on a mo. You just refered to the ORANGE light having been coming on. That's not good. First off, you need to verify that the wastegate is being actuated. The diaphragm jobbie at the side of the turbo is it's actuator. Disconnect the hose going to it and inspect the hose. Next pull a vacuum on the actuator, it shouldn't leak. Next put 10psi or so on it and check that the rod moves. I'm guessing all that'll test OK. You'll have to remove the turbo for the next check. Take the exhaust elbow off and look in. You'll see a flap valve connected to the actuator rod. Ensure that it's closed when there's no pressure on the actuator, and that it opens when you put the 10 psi or so on it.
Also inspect it's seat for cracks.

Don't worry too much about the play, they all seem to have more than specified...

And re. the hose connectors, smear the rubber seal with grease before putting the pipe on.

One other thing to check before getting a compression test done. Is the crankcase breather hose OK? No kink in it by any chance? Pull it off and start the engine. How much blowby is there?

- (#7853) david miller, 31 Mar 03

i will follow up what you said when i get home tonight.
you mentioned 'pulling a vacuum', 'put on 10psi' & compression tests - what tools should i purchase to do these things & did i see that you were getting rid of some townie stuff - i could purchase from yourself as someone who after a lapse of 15 years want to get back into self-maintenance again? any manuals you've got if useful - i've got the rm025e.

- (#7882) Peter Dawson, 31 Mar 03

Well, my manuals are away, but
sucking on the wastegate actuator will show you any leaks, a bicycle pump will create the positive pressure you need to test the wastegate's movement. Compression test? Don't buy the gauge, they're too dear. Better taking the car to your local diesel specialist, let him do the test.

Ensure that all the inlet duct connections are secure and well clamped down.

- (#7883) david miller, 31 Mar 03

Hose inlet manifold to injector pump & pressure switches not blown off.
Suck on actuator - good suction, no leaks.
Pump on actuator - rod moves (not sure but may have been hesitant at first i.e. stuck?). Rod has bends in it i.e. not straight - is that ok?
Pump on pressure switches with engine running - green light comes on with light pump, green goes out & amber comes on with harder pump.
Crankcase vent pipe taken to mean pipe at side of cylinder head (top of engine) - is that right? - gentle stream of air.
Rev up to 2000rpm no squeal noise & no boost lights. I wondered if the problem had gone away as there was no noise but there is still no boost light - I am right in thinking the green should have come on?
At lunchtime I'll have a look in the manual to see what other things I can pump & suck etc but do you think there is nothing left to check now but to take the turbo off?
- (#7884) Peter Dawson, 1 Apr 03 4:24

So far, all checks out 100%, Peter. The bends in the wastegate rod are deliberate BTW. If the turbo is making boost, your indicators WILL be able to tell you.

Now if there's no intake leaks letting the pressure out, then you're looking at either a failure in the pump to give fuel to make boost (unlikely), or a failed wastegate allowing exhaust to bypass the turbine.

Or there is one other possibility, the simplest of the lot. Check that the spigot that the hose to the switches and pump goes on to is clear. It has an orifice, you'll need to poke a needle down it. They have been known to block up with soot and gunge from the EGR. Not just will this disable the warning lights and the pump's on- boost control, but if any pressure DOES get through and remain trapped, the result would be black smoke from excess fuel...

- (#7918) david miller, 1 Apr 03 5:55

David
I just want to check out some basic concepts in case you have credited me with too much experience and before I continue diagnostics off at a tangent!
1. When I reved up to 2000rpm this was at standstill in neutral - will the turbo work (green light on) at standstill or only on load (driving).
2. Does the rod operate the waste gate and moves only at high pressure (<10psi) to allow the exhaust gas to bypass the turbo and prevent over-boosting?
... would be good if it was just the spigot.....

- (#7919) Peter Dawson, 1 Apr 03 7:34

turbo is unlikely to give boost at 2000rpm in neutral, probably need at least 3000. Under load, the light should come on at 1600rpm or so.

and yes, the wastegate is opened by excess pressure to control pressure.

- (#7920) david miller, 1 Apr 03 8:06

I poked a needle down the spigot (which was oily). I checked the pipes to the injector pump & boost lights switches - they were clear. I started up the engine and ran up to beyond 3000rpm but no boost lights. Quickly bliping the accelerator from idle produced a definite squeal. I tried the blowby test again, not sure what you're looking for but unlike previously the air stream was quite noticeable (detected easily on finger tips, not only after patience on sensitive hairs on back of fingers). Also oil was deposited on my fingers (none noticed before).

- (#7921) Peter Dawson, 2 Apr 03 17:32

well, you're left with either a catastrophic failure of a gasket (inlet or exhaust manifold) or some kind of failure in the turbo. Are you driving the vehicle or only revving it up in neutral?

I'd think the next step would have to be pulling the turbo. Not incredibly difficult (although a couple of "S" shaped spanners are almost essential), and you'll be able to check out the exhaust manifold at the same time.

You have checked the rubber hose between turbo and inlet manifold, yes? Might want to remove and refit it to ensure it's being clamped OK- that have been known to pop off at the turbo end but with the clamp still in place look OK...

- (#7922) david miller, 3 Apr 03 2:09

I'm revving it up in neutral - I guess you're going to say to be sure I should drive it?
'rubber hose between turbo and inlet manifold' is that the hose with wrapping around it going up to the large metal pipe below the air cleaner pipe? If so then yes I've taken it off and refitted (that had wet oil in it as well).
I guess I've just got to be bold and get the turbo off - it might not be until the weekend though.
I'm a great fan of working on the basis of diagnosing possible SINGLE point failures to cause ALL the symptoms. Are we still on track for finding a single cause of:
1. sudden non-turbo operation (no lights & no performance uphill)
2. squealing
3. loads of smoke out of the exhaust when coming to a standstill after driving.
4. all the above occured after carrying a VERY heavy load and noticing a low level of oil (bottom of dipstick (is this a red herring?).
Can a failed turbo produce all these symtoms?
Would you know what size S-shaped spanners I might need?

- (#7923) Peter Dawson, 3 Apr 03 4:33

Yes, and 12 & 14mm!

- (#7924) david miller, 3 Apr 03 12:53

Cheers! Here goes....

- (#7925) Peter Dawson, 3 Apr 03 14:26

Possibly the oil seals gone in the turbo? Same symptoms as mine, removed turbo and refitted new one (with broken hand in plaster) so not that difficult, no problems since

Steve

- (#7956) Steve Taylor, 5 Apr 03 13:13

Hello Steve, you sure know how to rub it in! I'm now at the stage where I should be able to remove the turbo but it appears to be sandwiched between the pipe to the exhaust manifold at the top and the oil feed pipes at the bottom (the nuts are removed). The turbo won't lower because the oil feed pipes are jammed up against the oil filter below it. I undid all the bolts to the block for the exhaust manifold in the hopes of nudging it up slightly to provide more room but two of the fixings are studs which means I can't gently slide up the manifold. There's a small pipe to the manifold from round the back of the engine with two nuts but it looks impossible to get at so that discourages me from going the route of removing the manifold altogether. Another option is to remove the oil filter to make more room. It all seems very awkward - perhaps someone can tell me what I'm missing or to encourage me to press on!

- (#7957) Peter Dawson, 5 Apr 03 15:36

just remove the two nuts holding the egr pipe to the rear of the manifold, and you should be able to spring the pipe over it's studs and then tilt and lift the manifold off. the turbo won't come off with the manifold on it, or the manifold in- situ. you can slacken the egr valve at the inlet to let the pipe free off if necessary.
oh, and remove the bottom support bracket too.

hth

- (#7958) david miller, 5 Apr 03 16:38

Thanks Dave, the two nuts for the EGR pipe were the ones I was avoiding - it seemed such confined space. Will a short, angled spanner to do the job? Would you happen to know the size?

- (#7959) Peter Dawson, 5 Apr 03 18:51

12mm IIRC, and you might find them easier to get to either from the passenger side or from under...

(if you do get them off, consider removing the whole EGR system and making up a blanking plate for each manifold)

- (#7960) david miller, 6 Apr 03 3:04

What is IIRC?
Sorry, Why would I need blanking plates for each manifold? Do you mean make up from sheet metal? When you say the whole EGR do you mean up to the inlet 4-channel manifold? Is this to check gaskets, cracks etc?
- (#7961) Peter Dawson, 6 Apr 03 4:57

IIRC- if I recall correctly.

Well, the EGR system- that pipe, the valve on the inlet manifold, and the associated solenoid valve, is there with the well- intentioned idea of reducing certain types of emissions, but in the preocess channels exhaust soot back into the engine. This blocks up the inlet manifold over time, and can cause the engine to wear more quickly as this soot is abrasive.

So taking the pipe, valve, and solenoid off, and making a blanking plate for the holes in each manifold, will stop this from happening, with the added bonus of a little more pover at light throttle settings, and more room on the passenger side rear of the engine. Metal plate yes, and the inlet one can even be aluminium. Don't forget to plug the vacuum line that went to the solenoid valve too!

- (#7962) david miller, 6 Apr 03 5:50

So you mean removing it altogether - permanently! Wow that's a bold move! I'm a bit of a minimalist but I would have thought the EGR would have a bigger impact - is it because the emmission laws are more stringent in Japan that we can remove the EGR? What's the effect on the emissions tests for MOT? Has there been a thread on this subject? If not I'll start a new thread for the benefit of everyone to join in.

- (#7963) Peter Dawson, 6 Apr 03 8:31

yes, covered before. EGR reduces oxides of nitrogen at the expense of soot levels, and our MOT only detects soot levels anyway. EGR can cause strange running problems if it faults, so this is a case of less is more!

EGR is only fitted to auto tranny townies IIRC, so yet another bonus to it's removal is a wider choice of exhaust manifold if/ when it warps and cracks (as they do...)

- (#7964) david miller, 6 Apr 03 12:22

If you want the templetes for the blank plates send me an e mail i will scan them so you can pre make them
(they should be thick to avoid distortion)
jim
adgo6@aol.com

- (#7965) J Adgo, 6 Apr 03 17:10

Thread continues as "Turbo Replacement"

- (#8060) Peter Dawson, 13 Apr 03 4:41


Message Thread was - "Turbo - oil in air cleaner pipe"
I've now removed the turbo and have the following observations in case this helps diagnostics and to invite comments:
1. A fair amount of water came out when the water pipes flange was undone. This flange was not mentioned in the RM025E manual.
2. No oil came out when the oil pipes flange was undone - it was definitely wet though.
3. There doesn't appear to be a removable compressor elbow with relief valve as mentioned in the RM025E manual.
4. The large metal pipe across the top of the back of the engine was filled up in one area by approx. 5mm depth of grimy soot at the engine inlet manifold end.
5. The exhaust inlet, outlet of the turbine and the propellers are evenly covered in a fine layer of soot.
6. The axial play of the propeller shaft is large, around 2mm and I can see shiny metal on the casing in the region of the propeller fins (rubbing on sides = screeching?)
7. On the left hand side of the engine there is a brown staining all over (previous coolant problem?)
8. Most, if not all, flanges are kind of pitted/ruptured and stained brown (is that a problem - cleaning, rubbing down required?)
9. Should I replace all gaskets or is it easy to inspect gaskets to see if still usable?

I am assuming the following actions are needed:
1. Find replacement Turbo. I will look on ACE Answers for guidance but if anyone wants to guide me here that would be appreciated e.g. part number & alternatives, what vehicles (at breakers), recommended sources and quality/quick checks.
2. Replace all gaskets. Again I will look on ACE Answers but any guidance here would be appreciated.
3. Clean up flanges. Recommended methods.
4. A couple of studs came out of one of the flanges on the Turbo. One the studs on the exhaust manifold for the EGR pipe one stud thread looks damaged and two different nuts are used. Can I assume no special care is needed and a decent car shop would be able to offer guidance?
5. Clean large metal pipe of significant grimy soot deposits (and at manifold). Should I also try to remove the fine layer of soot including in the manifolds (I'm hoping the answer is no!).
6. Any other useful checks or actions?
- (#8020) Peter Dawson, 12 Apr 03 8:45

Another thing the wastegate stuck open the first time I pumped it and released then it behaved alright after that

- (#8021) Peter Dawson, 12 Apr 03 9:04

Good work, Peter. Now while there's a fair bit of play in your turbo, the sticky wastegate sounds like an explanation for your power loss issue. Is there any oily gunge in the exhaust housing? how oily is the compressor housing?

If you can do without the vehicle for a period, get your own turbo rebuilt, unless funds are extremely tight. If you go s/h, dont touch it, just fit and pray- seals disturbed could be hassle.

re your observations, the repair manual refers to a Camry TD in the turbo section. Same but different... (some earlier turbos didn't have water cooling for example)

Best to replace any gaskets disturbed, but use you discretion...

- (#8022) david miller, 12 Apr 03 10:36

Inexhaust Manifold (fitted between turbo & cylinder block) and also at the exhaust inlet to the turbo there is an even covering of dry soot. Turbine elbow is the same. Compressor housing (integral to turbo - not removable & with no relief valve)(receives wrapped pipe from the large metal pipe over back of engine) - this is definitely oily as is the pipe attached to it but as to 'how oily' I don't know what to expect. You may recall my initial observations in the earlier thread on how oily the pipes were. I mentioned major deposits at the cylinder block inlet manifold flange to the large metal pipe across the back of the engine. Is that a concern?

Re
turbo rebuild - do you mean do it myself - that would be interesting - where do I get the parts - you mentioned elsewhere the turbo is difficult to rebuild? Or do you mean elsewhere - what kind of place should I approach and can you recommend one - How long would a rebuild take - what about rebuilt part-exchange rather than a straight second-hand or own rebuild?

What about the flanges what sort of attention do they need?
- (#8023) Peter Dawson, 13 Apr 03 4:42

don't worry about the flanges too much. just put a straight edge on them to check flatness, and dress lightly if needed.

Rebuild= exchange. It's just possible to rebuild your own turbo (I've done it...) but you need steady hands, some odd tools, and a £150 overhaul kit. Best to double that and have it done by the pros...

Oil and soot buildup is normal, 5mm in the inlet, not surprising.

- (#8024) david miller, 13 Apr 03 6:09

Peter. If you do go for the "professional rebuild" route, you will probably find a local turbo re-build Company listed in, say, Yellow Pages. One of the long standing and well recommended Companies is "Turbo Technics" of Northampton. They keep vast stocks of exchange turbos or, will re-build yours with, so I am told, a very quick turn round time. They have a website which will give you the information

- (#8025) John Davis, 13 Apr 03 7:08

Turbo Technics quoted £595+VAT! I thought I read in ACE Answers somewhere in region of £300 for exchange & £150-200 from breakers. Is £595+VAT o.k? Toyota quoted new for over £1000!!
I've looked on Turbo Technics website and it looks top-notch. Turbo Technics suggested me sending the turbo back & they'll have a look, report back to me & see what I want to do - the guy sounded sincere and professional so I'm inclined to go ahead send it back & effectivley put myself in their hands. What do you think?

- (#8098) Peter Dawson, 14 Apr 03 8:47

£595 is a bit steep for me, although their service is absolutely top notch indeed. Try some of the more regional specialists in the Yellow Pages- while they may not send out such a clean, certificated turbo, they will have done the major works.
I believe that TT are the major suppliers of rebuild kits to the trade, the kit retails at £130 or so...

- (#8099) david miller, 16 Apr 03 1:36

I think I will go for second hand for approx. £150 or less with 30 or 90 days warranty. If I quote water cooled CT-12 for 2C-T engine will this get me the exact turbo I need or do I need to supply additional information?

- (#8100) Peter Dawson, 16 Apr 03 4:55

best to say it's for a townace, otherwise you might have to swap or realign end housings to match the original

- (#8101) david miller, 16 Apr 03 7:23

The turbo should be winging its way to me now. I've got 5mm sheets to make up blanking plates in place of the removed EGR. Now about the oil. I need to do an oil flush & change but I'm not sure how best to do it. I don't know whether to drain the oil without flush, fit turbo, fill up & do a flush/change at a later date (the oil is black by the way). Or fit turbo, check all ok then flush/change oil with engine hot.

- (#8102) Peter Dawson, 17 Apr 03 3:14

In checking the gaskets to see if they can be reused what am I looking for?
Is torqueing required on all nuts & bolts?

- (#8103) Peter Dawson, 17 Apr 03 3:47

sorry, peter...
It's always best to replace gaskets, but if you're going to reuse them, check for missing sections, holse blown through them etc. If they go back on in the same orientation they came off in, they should seal up reasonably well. The oil feed gasket to the turbo is a good example, it's a pressed shim and it's the pressed ridge that does the sealing. Rigde compressed to far, no seal...
In theory all nuts and bolts should be torqued- there's a section at the rear of the RM025E that lists torque settings for all standard fasteners, and anything else will be listed in the text. But in practice, we all go by feel at times- that's OK untill we go slightly too tight...

- (#8155) david miller, 19 Apr 03 10:40

Diesels always turn the oil black BTW- it's the soot. As the turbo didn't fail as such, I'd wait until running and hot to do the change. At least that way, if there's a leak, you're not wasting new oil...

- (#8156) david miller, 20 Apr 03 2:04

I took delivery of the turbo from the breakers - but it is not a CT-12 that I ordered but a CT-20. I think the fittings are the same but the air inlet & outlet fittings are different. The propeller at the air end is stiff i.e. does not move freely (I assume that is a problem). The wastegate actuator & rod (rod is not kinked like my one) were taken off the turbo chassis but still attached to the vacuum pipe. I see that as unecessary and inviting damage. The wastegate appear to move freely.
Apart from it being the wrong part I also have concerns about how the 'breaking' & packing was handled. The turbo came in an approx 2ftx2ftx2ft cardboard box - the turbo was loose sitting on top of a single layer of bubble wrap - as stated before the actuator was loose so could be knocked about.
My plan is to get the breakers to arrange to take it back, refund in full including return delivery and go elsewhere.
I would appreciate comments to either confirm my assessment and concerns or, to provide some 'reality' input if I'm over-reacting!

- (#8196) Peter Dawson, 22 Apr 03 15:45

no, youre right. send it back. A ct-12 IS NOT a ct-20... Is it even off a diesel? Stiff to turn? unusual, a good'un normally has enough free play to worry me...
So no cooling gallery either?

- (#8197) david miller, 23 Apr 03 1:08

Thanks Dave I'll get right on to it. Sorry, you lost me with the "So no cooling gallery" bit. If you mean does it appear to have water cooling - the answer is yes - if you mean something else you'll have to enlighten me.

- (#8198) Peter Dawson, 23 Apr 03 3:12

Well I've got another turbo - this time the right part.
It arrived in a load of bubble wrap which is a bit better but was leaking oil (delivery man complained!). On unwrapping it I found that the oil was coming from the air intake not the oil flange. Could the turbo have a leaky oil seal? Or could the problem be with the original engine & the turbo is ok - or is this quantity of oil normal anyway? Can one confirm oil seals are ok by visual inspection?
The air end propeller moves ok but does not spin (i.e push it round with fingers & it carries on spinning)which, from memory, the old one did but there is much less axle play - is the lack of free spin ok?
Are other any other tests recommended before installing on vehicle?
Has anyone ever installed a breakers Turbo which was faulty. Were you able to return it? I'm just thinking that if the Turbo is faulty the breakers would easily be able to find fault with the installation to cause Turbo damage eg using original oil & water, air locks etc.

- (#8311) Peter Dawson, 1 May 03 6:02

Yup, it's OK for it to not spin. The bearings will only work when the oil pressure is up. Re the oil, a degree of oil in the compressor is normal, the seals aren't perfect. I'd put it on and try it...

- (#8312) david miller, 1 May 03 7:12

The ongoing saga....
The second one was actually damaged - the air pipe at the side had taken a knock thus flattening one side and causing a small split in the side (where the hose goes over). I waited for a replacement part but it was the wrong part CT-20 (still poorly bubble-wrapped and the breakers have said I will have to pay carriage to return before they will help further.
So....I attempted to knock the pipe of the second one back into a circle. This has made improvement but has caused the split to increase up to the lip (still where the hose goes over).
Questions
how circular must the pipe be? What can I do about the split? What precautions/sealing can I take when refitting the hose?

- (#8483) Peter Dawson, 13 May 03 1:49

Peter, if you can access a BIG pair of circlip pliers, swap the housings over. Might have to remove the oil or water fitting for access, but it's just a case of removing the circlip and wastegate bracket bolts, and pulling the housing off. It's a push fit over an "O" ring.

- (#8484) david miller, 13 May 03 2:28

just in process of replaceing my turbo usual fault plumes of smoke when comeing to stop at lights etc ...strange but dident have fault untill did full service with fully sythetic oil...anyway rang around a fair few places and have been quoted £275 all in ,am awaiting parcel van with eager anticipaicon.will post outcome shortly..

- (#8485) mark, 14 May 03 17:59

Synthetic acts as a solvent for gums and sludges. In a worn engine it's these that seal the gaps in seals etc. You could wait for a while and hope that it cleans up another bit, the consumption might improve...

Please try to remember and post new comments as a new thread!

- (#8486) david miller, 15 May 03 1:29

Continuing the original thread....
Looking at the torque figures in the back of RM025E for the Hexagon Head Bolt with plain washer do I use the Hexagon flange bolt setting? What do I use for a heaxagon flange nut? If someone could explain the reason behind it that would be appreciated.

- (#8557) Peter Dawson, 16 May 03 2:46

Hey Guys!! It looks like I've got a working vehicle. Thank you all for your help especially David.
Now I can move on to other projects....

- (#8558) Peter Dawson, 17 May 03 17:28

peter i got same problem, what was the cost to you to get it repaired, ive been quoted 230 quid from turbo technics if it is the oil seals + my garages bill to remove and refit

- (#8559) ron coe, 17 May 03 18:18

Hi Ron, read rest of this thread for background information. I got one second hand from a breakers and fitted it myself. The turbo was £129 and I replaced all gaskets including EGR which I removed which cost around £60.

- (#8560) Peter Dawson, 18 May 03 15:25

hello everyone just replaced my turbo ..got one from TURBO SPORT in beds tel 01480 406886 ..£275 ALL IN ...looks brand new .came as complete unit .have pictures if anyone wants

- (#8666) MARK, 19 May 03 16:20

Recently done a straight engine change on a Townace diesel 2ct turbo engine,everything seemed fine until roadtest.Whilst on roadtest as revs picked up turbo became noisey as if trying to push air through a blockpipe {short hissing sound followed by power loss then turbo was rattling)on inspection found nut had come of turbo fan.After inspection refitted original turbo again everything seemed fine until roadtest,the turbo became noisey for what i can see no obvious reason.The only differance found when fitting engine/turbo was the water cooling pipes to the turbo were slightly differant,i do not feel that this should be a problem ??? any idea's.many thanks Trevor

- (#9036) Trevor Munt, 8 Jun 03 15:54