We have a 2l diesel townie which is causing problems.
It started losing coolant, but there was no system leak.
It was apparent that the coolant was actually being blown out of the
system via the expansion bottle and overflow so somehow the coolant
system is being pressurised. I could only imagine that this was due
to the cylinder head gasket failing.
The local garage had it in and said that the gasket had failed but
also the head was cracked. They quoted me a price of £680 for a new
cylinder head which they fitted. Including labor it cost me £1250!
The problem has recurred almost immeadiately.
When I checked in the engine compartment it seems to me that that the
cylinder head is not a new one at all. It is covered in grime and has
stickers on it which are faded and peeling. I get the feeling
therefore that I have been taken to the cleaners, and charged for a
new one when the one fitted may have come from a scrapyard.
Is there anyone I could take it to in the south Wales area where I
can get a report on the work by someone expert with townies.
And someone who could fix it properly
Mike Kocan
- (#7934) Mike Kocan, 6 Apr 03 6:21
Why go somewhere else? You've paid good money for a repair. If they won't play ball (you've an itemised receipt for the repair, no?) then it's trading standards time...
Was a new OEM radiator cap fitted? If not, there's a chance that the old one, damaged by the previous incident, has allowed the repair to fail. Has the system been pressure tested to prove that combustion pressure IS getting into the cooling system? A duff rad cap will allow coolant out,and air in, seeming VERY like a h/g issue...
Be aware that a brand new head complete would cost a lot more than you were quoted, a rebuilt one would normally be in the £5-600 ballpark. Pure secondhand would be £150- 300 depending on location and condition. S/H heads are fine, as long as they are skimmed and pressure tested.
It's quite possible that you were charged for (and got) a rebuilt head, but that the garage used a poor quality gasket.
Take it back to the garage, get them to do a pressure test (get them to start the engine and test for cooling system pressurisation) and if it fails the test,then the head must come back off AT THEIR EXPENSE to verify the cause of the leak. A poor gasket, a crack, warped gasket face, whatever, they're all the garage's problem.
- (#7935) david miller, 6 Apr 03 7:23
Mike. In order to advise you that the original cylinder head was cracked, the garage must have removed the head and carried out a pressure test on it. There is no other way to acertain if there is a crack, except in the very rare case where a crack can be seen by using, say, crack detection fluid on the removed head. If they have fitted a s/h, rebuilt head,likely, in view of the price, that, also, should have been pressure tested and skimmed and you, as the customer, have a right to have confirmation from them that this was done, together with sight of the documentation, from the machine shop which carried out this work. If they have fitted an unchecked s/h head, you are being asked to pay for a duplication of the original fault.
David has covered the other aspects which should have been checked and I agree with him that the high costs you have had to meet, should be advised to the Trading Standards Office if you do not get satisfaction from the repairing garage.
- (#7936) John Davis, 6 Apr 03 11:31
Hi, my toyota townace is currently in my local garage in nottingham in pieces. It requires a new head gasket. Any ideas as to who can supply and the costs involved?.....thanks.
- (#8257) anne, 25 Apr 03 14:42
Anne. There is a Company in Chaddesden, Derby, ie, Bullivants, who can supply all you require. They know Townaces inside out. Tel 01332 671000.
You will need the latest gasket, part No 11115-64170-BO, and and a set of new head bolts. There are two sizes required, ie, part No 90910-02097 and 90910-02099. Total cost of these parts is around £95. I trust that your garage is familiar with this engine. If not, do tell them to inspect and clean the engine block waterways (between the cylinders). Also, do they have acces to the engine manual, Toyota part No RMO25E? All the (most) important torques settings are there and they should not be "guessed" at.
- (#8258) John Davis, 26 Apr 03 2:33
Mike,
just to say I do some work with the Citizens Advice and I agree with John and Dave.
Take the vehicle back to the garage who did the work they have a responsibility to fix their work
- (#8259) Phil, 26 Apr 03 15:39
i read on an australian toyota supra website that certain early 90s models of that car were prone to head gasket failure due to the fact [although toyota wont admit it]the head bolt torque settings were incorrect at the factory.Just wondered if there is any pattern to townace gasket failure,e.g.only certain year models prone to it.Or does it happen to later 90s models.I've also heard early 90s model hi lux surf trucks suffer the same fate.
- (#7942) jeremy everingham, 4 Apr 03 15:26
can any one tell me how to change ahead gasket on a townace 2litre
thanks dave
- (#9506) dave, 7 Jul 03 15:26
Umm, not to be rude, but if you don't know how to, you shouldn't be doing it...
Petrol or diesel? If diesel, buy an RM025E manual.
- (#9507) david miller, 8 Jul 03 1:37
thank for your reply its not that i dont know but have never worked on a toyota import before it is not diesel it is petrol
thanks dave
- (#9508) dave, 8 Jul 03 7:47
can any one tell me if the hiace 2litre petrol engine is the same as the townace 2litre petrol engine
and if the workshop manual would be able to tell me more about the head gasket
thanks dave
- (#9509) dave, 8 Jul 03 8:38
can any one tell me what the valve settings are for 3y engine i would be most graeful if any one knows
thanks dave
- (#9675) dave, 14 Jul 03 14:58
have had head skimmed and fitted all new gaskets also new thermostat tested engine for cylinder head leaks and is ok have also fitted new rad but the engine is still running very hot and have to put heater on and use the blower on full to stop it boiling up have you ant ideas as to where i could look next to cure the promlem
thanks dave
- (#10114) dave, 31 Jul 03 13:18
ignition timing, water pump?
- (#10115) david miller, 31 Jul 03 13:53
"ant ideas as to where i could look next to cure the promlem" (sic)
Yes, look to your own bad manners in not even acknowledgeing the direct email with torque settings, scans from the manual etc, which I provided after your previous request earlier in the month, and you will find that people might be more willing to help.
- (#10116) John Davis, 31 Jul 03 16:05
Many thanks for your assistance Dave have fitted new water pump. Will check ignition timing tomorrow
and let you know how I get on.
thanks Dave
- (#10117) dave, 1 Aug 03 15:44
Help i have an H reg 2 ltr townace desiel. Last year i had the head skimmed and new gaskets and rad, all fine but today the engine over heated so called the AA and low and behold he thinks head gasket, Water is frothing at the top of the rad and bubbling out.
Any body with ideas or does any one want to but it!!!!
thanks paul.
- (#10118) paul, 2 Aug 03 7:46
can anyone give me some advise on how to slow the tickover down on my engine? or where i can buy a manual for this engine
many thanks
dave
- (#10492) dave, 31 Aug 03 3:29
I had an serious overheating episode on Saturday going to London Airport, the temp. gauge started to rise so I stpped & let it cool down, waited about 1/2hr & continued. On the return the same thing happened, I had to call out recovery to take me back to Newport. My question is can I do the head rebuild myself or should I take to an engine specialist or local garage? any input would be greatly appreciated. I am a competent DIYer with a garage full of pro tools.
- (#9989) Arshad Mahmood, 30 Jul 03 6:04
Arshad. For a competent DIYer,it's a strainghtforward job and MUCH more economical than paying garage labour rates. Many garages are not always conversant with this engine anyway and you will learn a lot about your vehicle if you do the job yourself. There is a lot of information in Ace Answers but, the engine manual,part No RMO25E and available from your Toyota dealer, is essential if you have not worked on this engine before.
Most important. Get the head pressure tested to reveal any cracks and, skimmed to ensure flatness. You will, of course need a new gasket (the newer, multi layered one) and a new set of head bolts.
I am assuming that your vehicle is a Town/Masterace with the 2C-T type engine
- (#9990) John Davis, 30 Jul 03 7:04
Hi I have read over the last two years peoples woes of overheating and head gasket problems and all the time thought myself lucky mine has been faultless. UNTIL NOW last night on my twelve mile trip from work I noticed the temp gauge right up at the top so stopped and let it cool for an hour, then proceeded home, after it was cold I topped up the system and went for a ride round , we did about 30 miles without bother. Went to work this morning and just as I got to work to gauge again right up and steam coming out of the rad cap bypass hose. left it to cool all day at work topped it up less than a pint and drove home home this evening with no bother I have looked this evening and find that there are small bubbles in the neck when the cap is off and engine running no starting probs or loss of power Do you think its a gasket or cap or any other suggestions I've read Ace Answers till i'm blue in the face but they all seem to have the same symptoms any advice welcome
- (#10715) Phil Perry, 7 Sep 03 13:32
Bad news - bubbles in the neck with engine running = blown head gasket. Get it seen to before you get big/expensive trouble.
- (#10716) Clive, 8 Sep 03 1:51
Like Clive says, it's not sounding good. It is worth trying a new radiator cap. It's only £10 - £15 and may save the cost of a stripdown.
Hope that helps
dave Bright
- (#10717) dave Bright, 8 Sep 03 10:25
Well thanks for the replys. I'm hoping I have got away with it. Today I went to my "LOCAL" 23 miles away Toyota agent Wight Motors IOW and Dave sold me a new rad cap and themostat. Fitted the new cap at work after all had cooled down and no overheating or water loss since Sunday pm (Am I the lucky one or what TOUCH WOOD ) thanks Dave and thanks for the replys I read this site most evenings and have learned a lot
- (#10718) phil, 8 Sep 03 16:19
To all the wise & wonderful Ace experts out there
HELP.I have a 1990 2lt turbo Dl townace 4x4,problem,after traveling around 100-135 Km on both short or long runs expansion bot needs topping up,had a pressure test & given the following:-There is a slight leaking don't know if it's head or gasket,given the expense to remedie either & as these Towny's are virtualy bomb proof dont't flog it & it should last for ages!!!!!Question do I take his advice given that I will want to go to Scotland soon touring,do I grovel to my Bank Manager & hope it is only the gasket,or & I only say this as a last resort do I cut my losses & offload & get another vehicle.I might add that I do not appear to lose more than a cupful from the radiator and then not often
All and any advice gratefully recieved. Sorry but New Forrest a bit far for 1 day from Lancashire. Steuart H.
- (#11272) Steuart H., 23 Oct 03 17:01
You should be able to identify the loss by trying things listed in ace answers - but if you can't and the loss is minimal - for piece of mind you could try a sealant such as 'Car-Go Seal Up' (for head gasket/block etc.) from a motor factors or 'Barrs leaks (for other losses). Do follow the instructions to the letter to avoid probs though.
A very small plastic bag (from your bank?) attatched to your overflow tube on expansion tank should indicate if blown out of there (assuming a good seal on expansion tank cap) by exhaust gas in the coolant (head gasket) as it will fill with fluid.
There is no substitute for 'nailing down' the exact cause of the prob (if poss) before acting though as it sounds like you will be covering alot of ground soon
Good luck
- (#11273) chris turner, 23 Oct 03 20:39
Hi Steuart
Have a look at the archives on http://mpvi.net/ia/indexarc.htm look under cooling and heating, then decide if you think the Townace is bomb proof or not. It doesn't sound like your losing much coolant from an unidentified leak, but I would strongly advise you to fit one of Dave Masons temperature alarms. The standard unmodified temperature gauge is not reliable enough to indicate a hot engine before any expensive damage is done.
Regards
dave Bright
- (#11274) dave Bright, 24 Oct 03 4:46
Thank you both very much for your advice,will take all on board & try all sugestions.
- (#11382) Steuart H, 24 Oct 03 11:50
Hi Chris thanks for the plastic bag idea,went on a little jaunt to-day around 50 ml,when I got home lifted the pas seat guess what water everywere bag full to overflowering spurting out thro pin holes looked like (Trevi Fountain)and the Exspansion bottle full to the top. DOES THIS MEAN I HAVE A PROBLEM!!!!& my little trip up North is scotched,the only other thing I can say apart from help is do you know a good cheap mechanic. Steuart H
- (#11383) Steuart H, 26 Oct 03 18:53
Steuart. Have you experimented with the rad/filler cap off and watching if there is any unusual turbulence at the filler neck when you increase the revs ? If not, it is a helpful (though not conclusive)test to see if the cooling system is being pressurised by cylinder pressure crossing over into a waterway. If you have not done this, at start up, with a cool or cold engine, observe the turbulence. There will be some, due to the water pump and general movement of the coolant but, if it is excessive, ie, bubbling up and overflowing, it will indicate a possible internal leak.
If this test proves OK, carefull examination of the rad/filler cap, it's seating,the integrity of the small discharge/suction hose from the filler neck to the expansion bottle, and general condition of the main hoses, might be the next step. Is the small hose, which drops into the expansion bottle and is connected to the cap, in good condition? As Chris has said, there is much information in Ace Answers but do come back here if you want any more ideas
- (#11384) John Davis, 27 Oct 03 2:27
I going to strip my engine down in the next few days my local garage is letting me use his facilities, He has just bought a Lucida with a siezed engine & replaced it with a secondhand item, I would like to know whether the head is the same on the 2ct & 3ct in case mine is cracked or beyond repair he says I can have his from the Lucida?
- (#11385) Arshad Mahmood, 27 Oct 03 6:28
Steuart - I would follow Johns advice initially - to see the evidence (bubbles) yourself.
You could also extend the head (check your e-mail for jpeg)to rid the system of air
If you temporarily extend the head be sure to clamp the tube leading to expansion bottle - a brake tube clamp (cheap from local accessory shop) would suffice. Alowing the engine to heat up ( heater valves open, revving occasionally and massaging your hoses) and then cool down with the head extended above your heater height should remove all air and will allow you to see if exhaust gases are blowing into the system or not
- (#11386) chris turner, 27 Oct 03 8:48
hi stewart
take my tip if you overheat the damage has
been done all these so called remedies are
ok if you want to get shot of vehicle but
if you intend to keep it do the job properly
remove head get it faced and crack tested
if you remove seats and radiator its quite
easy and fit new belts i have done several
and take it from me the alternative will
only end in tears
good luck David Humphreys
- (#11387) David Humphreys, 27 Oct 03 15:50
Many thanks to all the help, advice & sugestions.
The problem has been solved (or will be soon),heater blowing cold after 5-6 ml result blown thermostat,garage run test bottom hose was cold,replaced even I could see it was shot,took it on test run result head gasket shot,remedy heart attack when told price.to replace gasket & skim & test head £450,if head shows a crack another £250 + £50 for thermostat + our old friend VAT, final total around £850.So it would appear I'm on the Bread & Water diet for the forseeable future.Is this the price one pays for an exotic model.Dave I will be buying your gizmo in the meantime it can stay parked after repair.
- (#11388) Steuart H, 28 Oct 03 13:31