Hi all, a few months ago I had clunking noises' coming from the front suspension, quite a bad clunk when going over bumps, steering lock to lock & braking. Replaced all top & bottom swivel(ball) joints, completely cured problem.
Now, this same noise has come back, but doesn't happen going over bumps or lock to lock, only when braking. I have an idea it could be the wishbone bushes. Has anybody had a similar problem/noise & was it the wishbone bushes.
I have checked the new ball joints I fitted & the're ok. Did I possibly disturb the wishbone bushes when fitting the ball joints, enough to make the knocking noise temporarily go away, now everything has settled, knocking has come back. Very grateful for any thoughts/help with this as its driving me mad!
Also when you rock the bus up & down to re-create the movement, it doesn't clunk at all, only when on the move - i.e. weight transfer forward. Its a '91 Masterace 2wd TD.

Tony.

- (#8004) Tony Lloyd-Jones, 13 Apr 03 4:39

Tony. That's interesting and, shortly, I am to overhaul my front suspension. When you say "top and bottom" swivel ball joints, were you able replace the top ball/swivel? I understood that it's an integral part of the top wishbone and they cost around £250 each or, do 2WD Masteraces have a more sensible arrangement? Did you replace the entire assembly? My vehicle is a 1990 Masterace 4WD.
I intend to dismantle the wishbones and their bushes, if a more thorough, unloaded, inspection reveals much wear and was planning to fit polyrurethane bushes (as per Land Rover mods). The Toyota rubber bushes are £45 each but I think I can modify a standard "Top Hat" polyurethane bush which is available from a Company called Powerflex whose website you might care to look at.
The clunk from my suspension is, as yours, only when the vehicle is in motion. A static test does not reproduce it. I have done a rudimentary test of my front swivel joints and they appear OK. I removed the plugs from the top swivels, shortly after I got the vehicle, and replaced them with grease nipples which I service quite regularly, but I will shortly take the torsion bars off and do a more thorough check.

- (#8005) John Davis, 13 Apr 03 7:00

Yes 2WD have a bolt in top joint, dead easy 10-15 minute replacemnt and easy/cheap to get.
No idea on the clunk.
Clive

- (#8006) Clive, 13 Apr 03 8:17

Hi John,

The 2wd must have a different set up to the 4wd regarding the top ball joint, as Clive mentions. Have been looking at the Ace Answers archive, shows an exploded view of the top & bottom wishbones, Think the diagram shown is for the 4wd(going by the top ball joint). Can only see the bushes for the lower wishbone, with the top one having a bar going through the support bosses, are there bushes in there? Last time I looked at mine trying to find the knocking noise, seem to remember seeing bushes in the top wishbone & thinking that they would be a total nightmare to change. Could you possibly clarify this, or anybody with a 2wd.
Also, do you plan on removing your bushes soon? Would be very interested to find out if this was the cause of what sounds like the same problem.

Regards, Tony.

- (#8007) Tony Lloyd-Jones, 13 Apr 03 9:26

Tony. Yes, that upper wishbone support must have bushes in it to take the movement of the component. However, Clive has reminded me that the 4WD top wishbone has the non removable ball/swivel assembly and, when I enquired at the Toyota dealer, some time ago, I seem to remember being told that this wishbone comes complete with the ball/swivel and the main bushes already fitted. I agree, they do look a nightmare to change and, if they are badly worn, and I cannot fit (or get) suitable replacements, I will have to consider fitting new wishbones. The effect on my wallet though is a limiting factor.
Yes, I am shortly setting aside a week to do some work on my Masterace. I want to change the cam belt, fit a locking device to the main pulley bolt, and change various other drive belts which show signs of wear. While the vehicle is off the road, I am going to remove the torsion bars and thoroughly check all the front suspension pivots. If I do replace any of the main wishbone bushes, I should like to fit the polyurethane type and I need to remove the old bushes in order to get accurate sizes. Powerflex do not do pattern bushes for the Town/Masterace but, they do have a general range and I intend to machine suitable bushes to fit.

- (#8008) John Davis, 13 Apr 03 13:18

Tony. Further to the above ramblings, I have now checked the CD and, the upper wishbone pivot bearing assembly is shown fitted with a plug at it's front end.
It is listed as "plug for ball joint". (not to be confused with the plug, on the top swivel/ball steering joint, which I mentioned in an earlier posting). David Miller reminded us, some time ago that there was provision for fitting a grease nipple at this point so, does this top assembly have ball/swivel types of bearing instead of the bonded rubber, "Top Hat" type, fitted to the lower swivels ? Also, I wonder if this top pivot is adjustable for wear as it seems strange to fit a ball type joint to a pivot which only operates in one plane. Possibly, this could have something to do with transmitting the torque, from the wishbone, to the torsion bar?
I will let you know when I get it dismantled.

- (#8009) John Davis, 13 Apr 03 13:46

I can confirm that the 4WD upper ball joint is integral with the wishbone (2WD bolts on). To replace it (offside) requires removal of floorpan, radiator and about half the vehicle. I found the prospect too daunting so took it to my local mechanic. It took him a full day. The part was £205 + vat and had to be air-freighted from Japan. I couldn't get one secondhand despite trying all my sources.

BTW - the symptoms I had was steering wander rather than a knock so you may be best to look elsewhere first before resorting to changing the wishbones.

The grease nipples are 6M IIRC. About £1.50. Pump a couple of squirts from a grease gun once per year.

- (#8010) Ian Dunse, 14 Apr 03 1:29

Thanks for that Ian but, could you advise please. Did the new wishbone have it's inner bushes already fitted, as well as the swivel ball joint , ie, complete and ready to bolt onto the vehicle or, did your mechanic have to fit bushes to the two inner pivots?

- (#8011) John Davis, 14 Apr 03 1:45

Complete and sealed unit John. The inner bushes that fit onto the torsion bar were plastic IIRC and didn't look as if they would readily come out. Machined in along with the ball joint.

- (#8012) Ian Dunse, 14 Apr 03 2:54

Many thanks to all that have replied to my original question. John, was going to wait & see what your findings were when you stripped your bus suspension down, but sounds like you have a slightly different set up with the 4wd. My local Toyota dealer is very good & has always helped me out in the past when I've been stuck. I intend to take a trip down there soon & ask advice/look at their drawings/speak to mechanics etc. I will also make enquiries about the 4wd. I will post any findings on the site for you to look at or e-mail you direct. Speak soon,

Regards, Tony.

p.s. Can possibly get hold of correct size bushes cheaper than OE parts, will let you know.

- (#8013) Tony Lloyd-Jones, 14 Apr 03 6:18

Thanks Ian. I will approach the strip-down with some trepidation, and keep my fingers crossed that there will be a minor gap in those top wishbone, inner bearings, therebye avoiding that major gap in my finances if they have to be replaced.
Thanks also Tony. That sounds interesting about replacement bushes and yes, I would appreciate any information which you might obtain. The lower wishbone, inner bushes, are £45 each from Toyota

- (#8014) John Davis, 14 Apr 03 6:34

John, will hopefully get some info/answer's in the next couple of days, will keep you posted. Also someone else has just e-mailed me saying he has the exact same problem as us - that's 3 now, wonder if there are any more out there?

- (#8094) Tony Lloyd-Jones, 14 Apr 03 16:10

It sounds like the rubber doughnut shaped bushes on the strut rod which goes between the suspension leg and the body have shrunk (as mine did). This is peculiar to the 2wd only , and is used to set the castor . The bushes are sandwiched between two large locknuts and cant be compressed when they shrink due to a tube inside them. The result is a clunk when braking. If you are in any doubt , jack your van up and observe how much gap appears between the two doughnut rubbers
Jim
ps they are about 10 quid each , and you can see a pic of them in ace answers

- (#8095) J Adgo, 14 Apr 03 16:16

Jim, thanks very much for this info - have printed off the picture you mentioned. Did you have this exact same problem? If so, did fitting these type of bushes cure the clunking noise? Hope mine turns out to be the same problem, will look at my bus asap, will let other's interested know the results. Thanks again,

Tony.

- (#8150) Tony Lloyd-Jones, 17 Apr 03 17:25

Tony, it cured my clunk which only occured under enthusiastic braking shall we say! It also helped my general handling though i have to say the bushes had shrunk a massive 10 mm as you can see in the comparator picture i posted. Having said that the Townace will always have its nasty habit of transmitting shocks due to the torsion bars being completly un-isolated from the chassis - any wear or gaps such as play in wheel brgs , or bushes and joints makes this worse - id love to have drivrn a brand new one just to see what they are like at their best - its not going to happen though is it. keep the joints and rubbers in good nick and suffer the rest

regards jim

- (#8151) j adgo, 21 Apr 03 17:11

On a light note I used to have an old vw passat GL5 - the doughnuts isolating the front shocks from the shell had shrunk about 10 mm also
Wrapped some cheap blue polyester rope into the gap (albeit the opposing side of the shell)and melted it in a little with a blowtorch to stop it unwrapping
Though it sounds dodgy it transformed the handling of the vehicle making it feel much newer - the 'repair 'lasted for the remainder of my ownership (around a year +) with no sign of giving in
Chris

- (#8152) chris turner, 21 Apr 03 17:27

Thanks Jim & Chris, firstly, the clunking from my bus will occur even with the slightest of braking, as opposed to enthusiastic braking, although it still occurs then. Secondly, I'm going to fit new bushes, as jim did & hope this sorts the problem out. Will post results when I've down the job.

Thanks again, Tony.

- (#8195) Tony Lloyd-Jones, 22 Apr 03 14:09