hi

I have a 2000model auto toyota MPV called a "spacia" here in australia. body is based on "townace" SBV (semi bonneted van) but has a 2.0L petrol engine instead of the normal 1.8L

I am getting an odorless gas into the cabin and I am unable to locate where it is coming in from. I have had this problem since I bought the vehicle in nov2002, 6 months now. I keep thinking it is exhaust gas but I am unable to determine if it is

there is no smell, only an effect. symptoms are drowsiness, concentration affected, out-of-breathe feeling, heavy eyes, effect creeps (sometimes you feel ok and then you feel it come on again) and seems to affect short term memory. a short sleep and feel 100% ok

effect begins within 1 minute of driving.

effect only happens if the vehicle is moving. engine off, or idling, and sitting in the vehicle has no effect

I have another car, toyota corolla hatch 2000 model, and I am not affected when driving it under the same circumstances ( to work, to shops, etc)

visual inspection shows no obvious holes to allow any exhaust in

I have done some experiments by sealing the normal air holes along the sides between the wheel arches (at the inside bottom of the rocker panels - bottom outside shell/panel meets the underside panel).

1) if I seal both sides then CO2 levels breathed out increase rapidly (determined using CO2 meter) and the odorless gas that does get in now cannot get out thus making the problem worse.

2) if I seal the left side between the wheel arches then the vehicle becomes drivable but a 1 hour drive can feel like a 4 hour drive

3) no seal and car is impossible to drive for more than 20-30 minutes

4) with half seal (only left side below rocker panels) is worse when vent is opened. this could be because is letting in other vehicle exhaust in and because of the sealing at bottom of rocker panels is not letting this exhaust out. as well could be creating a pressure drop that is allowing exhaust, own or other vehicles, thru some entry hole


I have approached toyota in australia. they tested for monoxide and then concluded there was no problem.

I did my own monoxide test hiring a monoxide meter and found CO levels acceptable (<10ppm). I got similar reading on the toyota corolla vehicle that has no odorless gas problem. as well I do not think is a monoxide problem because a warmed catalyctic converter removes most carbon monoxide. measurements directly out the exhaust pipe shows levels of CO (<2ppm), which is not in the dangerous range.

can anyone help?

any suggestions will be appreciated

thanks

z e l k o
- (#8869) zelko jurcic, 4 Jun 03 2:08

Hmm had a guy who worked for me once with the same complaint. Police found him one morning on the hard shoulder of the motorway, asleep. He had complained for weeks about drowsiness and headaches after and whilst driving. Turned out to be exhaust gases from a broken exhaust manifold I think. Only happened when really hot. I would suspect that your problem will be in this area. Otherwise look for some dripping fluid or insulation material coming into contact with hot components and vapourising to give CO and CO2 gases. Until you find it drive with the windows open!

- (#8870) Ian Dunse, 4 Jun 03 2:45

Only other gas sources are dampers and aircon system though I wouldnt know if these gases produced these effects. (check them out though - fluerescent dye should be in the aircon system and an ultra violet lamp should highlight any leaks)
Regarding aircon - fungus etc. can grow in the ducting (I am led to believe) - there is a spray with extension tube for disinfecting the system (see archives)
Are passengers affected? Have you tried letting someone else drive it?
I just wondered about the possibility (long shot)of you having an allergy to some contaminant in the vehicle - are your pollen filters clear(if fitted)?

As Ian suggests keep your windows open and have your full exhaust system fully checked from tail to the block - including exhaust hangers.
Also dont discount exhaust gasses being sucked in through the tailgate seals - when I have driven cars with the tail gate slightly open gasses clearly get sucked in at an alarming rate
Good luck
Chris

- (#8871) Chris turner, 4 Jun 03 11:57

Carbon Monoxide is one of the biggest by products of the conbustion process. Nearly all of the CO is converted to CO2 (Carbon Dioxide) by the catalytic convertor on a modern engine, however Ian could be right & you could have a crack in the manifold, as this is before the 'cat' you could well be being mildly poisoned by the carbon monoxide. my advice, GET IT SORTED BEFORE YOU DROP DEAD AT THE WHEEL< AND POSSIBLY TAKE OTHERS WITH YOU.

Regards Rob.

- (#8872) Rob Drinkwater, 4 Jun 03 13:22

Guys, hate to do it to you, but diesels don't produce appreciable amounts of CO. If you ever want to make the hosepipe-up-the-exhaust style of early exit, don't do it in a diesel. Your demise will be slow and painful, lung disease caused by soot inhalation the final killer...

- (#8873) david miller, 4 Jun 03 13:32

I really hate to do it back Dave, but Unfortunately this thread starts with
“ but has a 2.0L PETROL ENGINE instead of the normal 1.8L”
- (#8874) dave Bright, 4 Jun 03 13:39

Bugger...

take it back then. True tho. Doh, always thinking of diesels, me!

- (#8875) david miller, 4 Jun 03 15:09

try checking refrigerant hoses as any refrigerant is odourless and being heavier than air will expel oxygen. this is a problem experienced by many refrigeration engineers and to make matters worse leaks were found using flame detectors turning the refrigerant into fosgene gas which was widely used during the first world war, but at least you can smell fosgene but not for long in a confined space,"its bye byes. The good point is that refrigerant usually runs out and the problem will stop.

- (#8876) brian squire, 4 Jun 03 16:30

I've just checked with a former collegue and similar symptons have been recorded in vehicles fitted with solenoids on the a/c system where by no refrigerant leak is found until the system is switched on and cfc is blown directly into the drivers lungs expelling oxygen. a couple of minutes in the fresh air usually cures the symptoms.

- (#8877) brian squire, 4 Jun 03 16:39

But as the original poster of the question says it's been going on for 6 months, it must be a bloody big a/c system to hold that much gas, it's got to be CO from the engine. See my earlier post abd get it fixed before people DIE.

- (#9012) Rob, 5 Jun 03 15:22

Speaking from a medical perspective (20 yrs. BRI. casualty) what you are describing is carbon monoxide poisoning, you must sort this, you are losing brain cells every time you experience symptoms. I sometimes wonder about a global effect that must have happened to Bristolians ????. Seriously it can only be this and it is a cumulative and very dangerous poison.

regards
Ian Bond

- (#9013) Ian Bond, 6 Jun 03 1:55

I know this thread started with mention of problems with petrol engines, but there was later mention (Dave Miller) of how relatively benign diesel exhaust was; this from a US employers' website concrned with Occupational Safety & Health...

"When diesel fuel burns in an engine, the resulting exhaust is made up of soot and gases which may contain thousands of different chemical substances.

The soot consists of very small particles that can be inhaled and deposited in the lungs. Diesel exhaust contains 20-100 times more particles than gasoline exhaust. These particles carry cancer-causing substances known as polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs). Gases in diesel exhaust, such as nitrous oxide, nitrogen dioxide, formaldehyde, benzene, sulfur dioxide, hydrogen sulfide, carbon dioxide, and carbon monoxide can also create health problems."

Almost makes carbon monoxide poisoning sound trivial, doesn't it?

- (#9014) Arthur, 7 Jun 03 11:33

True. But bear in mind that the enviros' in the US don't like diesels...

Fact is, the newest generation Euro- spec diesels, running on ULSD, fitted with particle traps, catalysts, etc produce levels of particulates that are heading towards unmeasureable!

The Americans don't even have ULSD yet! (which means that manufacturers can't import their clean vehicles)

Oh, and all the other emissions mentioned will also be produced by both petrol and LPG- fuelled engines...

- (#9015) david miller, 7 Jun 03 13:49

any noticed there has been no response from zelko.
after reading all these replys, he's probably well and truly in sidney lunybin!.

- (#9016) brian squire, 7 Jun 03 23:37

Modern diesels, as David says, now have soot traps, and as from March 2004 will HAVE to have catalytic convertors to remove many of these gasses, as well as the soot. My new Peugeot 406 HDi has a soot trap, particulates filter & catalytic convertor, it also washes a chemical through the engine automatically at particular intervals that washes out the particulates filter & causes the soot in the cat to burn at a lower temperature (about 350 c rather than 600 c) so that it burns off all the soot build up. The upshot of the really clean burning diesels, is a reduction in the amount of car tax I pay (it's a company car) and the fact that the Vehicle Inspectorate recently issued a bulletin to all MOT stations stating that they might struggle top get a diesel reading from the latest generation of diesels, and if this happens they have to write out a manual report as their smoke testers don't even register anything. Couple that with much power, oodles of torque, 40+ Mpg (and I drive it hard) who would want a petrol car now.
As David says Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel hasn't hit the 'States yet, but it is starting to cause problems here though, the sulphur in diesel was always there to act as a lubricant for the diesel pump. Now that there is almost no sulphur in the diesel, the pumps are causing problems (transit diesels have real trouble) the upshot of this change is that you need to run an additive through you tank periodically, I use Wynns Diesel Power 3 at each service & once in between on both the Townie & the 406, just maintain performance & protect the pump. HTH Rob.

- (#9017) Rob Drinkwater, 8 Jun 03 3:45

hi everbody

thanks for all your replies and concerns. it is great to have someone to talk to about this problem.

i am new to this wwwboard and was expecting email replies and then was alerted (thanks dave) to go back to the wwwboard and reply there….

i am ok. fortunately i do have another vehicle (toyota corolla 2000 1.8l petrol) that i use when the spacia becomes too much.

now i have had someone take a look at the exhaust system, using a diagnostic smoke machine, and they concluded there was no problem.

as well, i have had an exhaust person do a visual inspection of the exhaust system and they concluded there was no problem.

the a/c system uses r134a refrigerant which is not suppose to be harmful. as an experiment i sprayed a rag with this refrigerant from the a/c system and woffed the vapour over the nose to see if it had any effect. none was felt and concluded that was not a problem with leaky refrigerant. as well, a/c system works fine and i am not losing refrigerant.



now i have been working lately on the theory that with all the sealing i have done it is possible that high co2 levels were having an effect as well

i better clear this up before going further.

i know now that i have been experiencing two problems:
1) exhaust gas (can be my own or other vehicles as well) in the cabin
2) high levels of co2 in the cabin (after extensive sealing of cabin)

the effects of exhaust gas in the cabin is slightly different to the co2 effect.
exhaust gas makes you nauseous and really screws with your brain while high co2 levels make you feel drowsy, unable to awake (and feel alert) and out-of-breathe feeling

i did an experiment where i sealed the non-problem toyota corolla air inlet areas (along the bottom strip between the wheelarches) and the effect was that described for high levels of co2. (also feels like you are being asphyxiated slowly).

i knew from the corolla experiment that what i was experiencing on the spacia was high levels of co2 from recent sealing of air inlet areas along the bottom between the wheelarches and so i decided to remove all the sealing (on the spacia) and the exhaust problem re-started
now i am trying to find a middle ground where not too much exhaust is allowed to build up and not too much c02, but this is proving to be impossible.

i have the spacia now at a stage where i can drive it for ½ hour without too much of an effect. this may not sound like a great achievement but it is a lot better than it used to be. how this was achieved was again by sealing the air inlet areas between the wheelarches on the left side and half way along the right side closest to the rear. at this stage i have noticed that if i open the vent to “re-circulate” problem gets worse quickly, probably indicating that a draught is established helping the gas enter via some means (which i have not been able to determine). i think the areas i have sealed are not where the gas is coming in from, but sealing those areas has stopped the draught effect from operating continuously and thus building up the exhaust in the cabin.

i am hiring a smoke machine this weekend and will use the smoke to look for suspect holes. wish me luck

thanks

z e l k o







- (#9141) zelko, 12 Jun 03 17:49

as an hvacr tech. for 15 years i have worked with r-22 freon alot, yet last week iwas exposed to it from a compressor change and it rendered mr unconsicious for aprox.1.5 hours. would love to hear any other experiences with it..

- (#9775) dennis, 19 Jul 03 9:53

Dennis
R22 being passed through a flame will produce fosgene as a chemical bonding of chlorine and flouride takes place. R22 in it's self was considered for many years to be harmless but being heavier than air it expells oxygen. In answer to your question, yes I've found myself stareing up at an un familiar ceiling on two occassions in my career but not through fosgene poisoning

- (#9776) brian squire, 20 Jul 03 0:42

Not had bad experiences with R22 or R12, but did get a load of R134a sprayed at very high pressure up my arm the other day, whilst undoing the High Pressure side cap on our Townie so as to do an A/C service on it, the whole adaptor came off, rather than just the cap, obviously the whole 1400grams of gas cam out, the first squirt of which went all up my left arm, also deposited great dollop of oil & UV dye on my lower arm, luckily I had a rag in my hand, so wiped my arm very quickly, and only got a very small area of burn on my arm, where I didn't get the refrigerant off in time. UV dye hung around for a couple of days though, daren't go to any discos.
Nasty stuff refrigerant, just lucky that I wasn't right under the car looking at it, although I always wear goggles & rubber gauntlets when actually playing with the gas, but in this case I was only taking the cap off, so look out for the whole adaptor coming off as mine did.

Regards Rob.

- (#9777) Rob Drinkwater, 20 Jul 03 12:15

Hi folks!
Can somebody explain me the reason of the rising of engine oil temperature on my 406 coupe' 2000 injection? The water temp is always under 90°C, while the oil temp is rapidly rising to 120-125 °C when the engine runs faster. In urban cycle the oil temp is around 95-100 °C. Apparently no defects were found by the peugeot technicians, but the problems is still there. I'm worried for the integrity of the engine.. please help! Thanks in advance, Nick.

- (#10395) Nick Pettazzoni, 25 Aug 03 6:22

Well, if that IS too hot for that particular engine, perhaps the oil cooler is blocked or being bypassed. You're using the correct spec of oil I presume?
- (#10396) david miller, 25 Aug 03 10:09