Any one have a diagram of egr location i want to remove mine or check it has been disabled. Russell.
- (#9786) russell, 23 Jul 03 16:31
Only fitted to autos as I recall, but it's a big diaphragm valve thingy at the rear of the engine l/h side, under the air inlet hose. A metal pipe runs from it round to the exhaust manifold...
- (#9787) david miller, 24 Jul 03 1:32
Russel
As David says its "it's a big diaphragm valve thingy at the rear of the engine l/h side, under the air inlet hose. A metal pipe runs from it round to the exhaust manifold..." - ie about 8cms across and like a small flying saucer. My Wagon is manual and 4wd.
I think you can just take the rubber hose off - this is what my local garage did when I mentioned poor performance on my 3L diesel Wagon. Getting rid of the EGR gave me a 10 to 15% increase in power right across the revs - I wish I had known about it sooner - its easy to try. I have since read up on EGR and it is a disaster for masking/diagnosis of faults and is costing a bomb in running costs due to about 5% loss of fuel efficency and more freqent oil changes needed - so it doesnt even help the environment due to its side effects - David I think this could be a big issue for the site and should be researched by others
- (#10081) JenChris, 28 Jul 03 11:11
thanks people i took off the vaccum hose & blocked it off. what a differnce!!!! pulls much better, everyone should disable this worthless device. Russell.
- (#10082) russell, 28 Jul 03 15:52
I was going to disable mine today (by putting small in-line valve in vacuum) but reading about head gasket failure on the link below has made me a little suspicious.
At bottom of link page (in brown box) it suggests that inoperative EGR can cause head gasket failure
http://www.babcox.com/editorial/us/us80222.htm
What do people make of this?
- (#10083) chris turner, 29 Jul 03 6:22
Chris, they're talking about petrol engines there. Too much or too little EGR in a petrol engine may indeed cause detonation (pinking). Diesel engines run by "pinking", and are designed so that EGR is only applied when cylinder pressures are low- eg light loads, idle. Engines are designed without EGR, then it is added to control emissions. Removing it cannot damage the engine.
DOn't mess about with valves. If you're going to kill the EGR, just disconnect the vacuum line going from the solenoid valve to the valve itself. And only plug the line, DO NOT plug the valve's spigot, otherwise the valve may be forced open by pressure differentials.
- (#10084) david miller, 29 Jul 03 9:36
Cheers David
Good job I read this - put a small hoselock type fountain (?) ball valve in-line this morning - fortunately only been 3 miles with the valve closed though.
Will pull it off the spigot end and see what happens
Thanks again
- (#10085) chris turner, 29 Jul 03 10:33
Chris, did you try it....And what happened? Does blanking the EGR off help cut down on smoke emissions too?
- (#10303) Stewart, 19 Aug 03 19:13
Yes I tried it and am happy to leave the egr disconnected. I have looked at the exhaust and there is no notable smoke increase. The bus does not smoke generally with the exception of a small puff on kickdown at nightime shown in the car behind lights (always done this). I can't see any smoke in daylight.
Powerwise I 'think' it is slightly better on the 'bottom end' (more responsive) but only a little.
mpg wise - well, I'll find out at the pumps tomorrow but I doubt much different.
There are 2 types of egr on hiaces - one is very simple and the other seems more involved - mine is the more involved so I can only 'assume' I have disabled it correctly - anyway if there are emission issues at mot time it will only take a second to reconnect...
I think its worth pulling the hose and plugging it but dont necessarily expect an earth shattering change - just maybe a slight change for the better..
- (#10373) chris turner, 20 Aug 03 17:16
Mine belches out black smoke under hard acceleration which is clearly visible in daylight; can also see it under medium acceleration so it looks like it may be a little more involved than cutting out the EGR. I'll try it though and see what happens. I checked the MPG while we were on holiday and got between 26-29mpg. That was with using the air con. quite a bit including fast idle whilst having picnics; so there can't be too much wrong with it, can there?
- (#10374) Stewart, 20 Aug 03 18:41
Stewart, disabling the EGR won't help you as it's shut off under full throttle (unless the valve's leaking...)
Are all your filters clean? A bottle of injector cleaner might just do the trick.
- (#10375) david miller, 21 Aug 03 1:11
David, I've only had my Townie six weeks. It's got about 8 months MOT left and had new fuel/air filters + additive to get it through last MOT (from what I can see from last owners receipts). I have changed engine oil and filter and also put in some Wynn's Clean Burn. It did seem to make a difference, but there was still smoke, especially on hard throttle. Since it has cleared the system there's more smoke.
- (#10376) Stewart, 21 Aug 03 5:06
Hi Stewart
You may need to get your injectors refurbished. I was getting 25-26 mpg before I had mine done recently. It cost £100, and there has been a noticeable increase since. That is until my injector pump started leaking. I asked the specialist how often they needed this and his answer was " infrequently. Only if you have a big smoke problem".
Hope that helps
dave Bright
- (#10377) dave Bright, 21 Aug 03 5:54
Yes, I was thinking along the same lines Dave. Sounds like they've gone a bit too far for a quick clean up doesn't it. A friend at work has recommended a local diesel specialist so I think I'll pop it round there to see what they reckon. For the time being I'll leave that EGR valve alone.
Thanks all for you advice
- (#10378) Stewart, 21 Aug 03 6:42
If you are decide to go to the trouble of removing and refurbishing the injectors, do disable the EGR, because it will soot them up again. It really is easy, I pulled the vacuum pipe of the EGR, folded it over and fixed two cable ties. One on the loose end and the other very near the fold. Then I unplugged the electronic connection on the valve bolted to the EGR. Admittedly I did have to remove the top of the air filter casing to be sure I was unplugging the right one, but it still took less than 5 minutes.
dave Bright
- (#10379) dave Bright, 21 Aug 03 7:14
Before condemning the injectors, look at the injection pump to verify whether the seals have been broken on it. There should be a wire looped between three adjusting screws, with a lead seal. It's not uncommon for the pumps to be tweaked up a bit before sale- makes the motor feel a little more lively at the expense of smoke.
There's also the chance that the injection timing needs an adjustment- has the cambelt been replaced?
- (#10380) david miller, 21 Aug 03 7:55
Dave - re:pulling the electronic connector.
On the hiace there is an electronic solenoid bolted to the air intake - this controls a large flap inside the intake - is this the one you pulled? (as I have no electonics bolted to the large saucer bit of the egr)
I just pulled it a couple of times with engine running and it missed a beat each time so left it on -
It may be worth you checking what happens when you switch of the engine - as when I was playing with it a couple of weeks back I pulled the vacuum to this flap - what I did notice though was when I switched off the engine, the whole engine would stop severeley on its mounts - obviously the mounts would'nt be able to take much of this so reconnected the bit - this is something you would'nt necessarilly notice with the engine cover down
- (#10381) chris turner, 21 Aug 03 8:08
Hi Chris
By the sounds of it, the Hiace is very different to the Townace because your description doesnt match the bit I pulled at all. If you look at the photo supplied on ace archives by Ray Woolmer on
http://mpvi.net/ia/pic.htm?pic=../ig/igwchegr.jpg
It shows the EGR unit and pipe connecting to the exhaust manifold. As you look at the saucer bit, positioned at about 1 O'clock is the vacuum pipe, and the electronic valve is bolted on to the side at about 3 O'clock.
Just checked the engine stop, and to my untrained eye, it seems ok
- (#10382) dave Bright, 21 Aug 03 9:12
Chris, your bit is rather different to the townies. The butterfly you refer to can be used to restrict airflow, increasing the relative intake of exhaust gas. Some diesels also use a valve like this to kill the engine- VW TDIs for example.
Dave is referring to the vacuum solenoid valve that controls the EGR diaphragm. It hangs off the intake manifold on the townie, could be anywhere on the Hiace...
- (#10383) david miller, 21 Aug 03 10:29
I have removed the vacuum pipe and sealed it,but was unable to unplug the electronic connector,I pulled as hard as I could.I couldn't see how it could be removed.Is it really necessary to remove it.
- (#10384) paul cavanagh, 21 Aug 03 12:25
not essential. But there'll be a little tab to push in, or flick out, to release.
- (#10385) david miller, 21 Aug 03 12:35
What colour is the electronic connector on the towny?
On the hiace I have black, orange and blue ones in various locations. Cannot be sure but the vacuum from egr seems to go to the blue one which also feeds other lines. Just wondered if the egr electonic connectors are colour coded.
David the butterfly mentioned above - with engine running its partially closed - I guessed it would run better open (rightly or wrongly) - have you any idea why the engine stops so quickly and severely when switched off with the vac feed to butterfly disconnected (butterfly open)?
Also filled up today - I would guess I got 'upto' 1mpg more than usual (20.87mpg best yet!)
- (#10386) chris turner, 21 Aug 03 18:38
Well, you're looking at the butterfly at idle. That's when just about max EGR is applied, but there's not so much vacuum in the manifold. The butterfly increases the vacuum. You'd probably find that it'll go to full open under load while driving.
The connector's brown in townies IIRC.
Yes, the engine will run better with it open, but it should be open most of the time. Why does the engine stop so roughly when it's open? In VW parlance it's an "anti- shudder" valve. Most of the shudder you feel as the engine stops is one of the pistons coming up to tdc on compression, then bouncing back sharply (air being springy...). If the valve is closed, there's a vacuum- less air in the cylinders, so the engine stops through mechanical friction, no "bounce"!
- (#10387) david miller, 22 Aug 03 1:29
Thanks for the explaination David - checked the butterfly whilst driving and most of time is restricting air flow quite alot - with the exception of upto 3 seconds when the pedal is floored. When engine is switched off is cuts the intake supply before opening to its rest point.
I've decided to invest in a vacuum pump to test - and when I get a few hrs will stare at the pipes with mirrors and torch to try and understand further
- (#10388) chris turner, 22 Aug 03 9:02
Well, I disconnected/blanked off the vaccuum pipe to the egr valve and it seems to have drastically reduced the amount of black smoke I get. I could not see any form of electric connector though?? The only one near it seemed to be some sort of 'dump valve' which I presume is the one to stop sudden engine shock when turning ignition off.
Is it likely that the egr has sooted up my injectors? Should I try another dose of injector cleaner?
- (#10448) Stewart, 27 Aug 03 15:43
Umm, the "dump valve" you refer to sounds suspiciously like the EGR... The townie doesn't have the anti- shudder butterfly.
No, EGR can't soot the injectors, they coke up from the INSIDE caused by poor fuel and high temps.
- (#10449) david miller, 28 Aug 03 1:25
So it is David!! After finding a picture of the components in Ace Archives (which I've just tried to find again and couldn't..) The pipe I have blanked is the one to the diaphragm on the actual valve and not one on the valve that controls it; which seems to be the one I wrongly 'presumed' was an anti-shudder device. Blanking this one has certainly made a difference in reducing black smoke emmisions though.
I've read on previous posts that the EGR was responsible for sooting up injectors....
Going by the temp guage my engine is not running hot, if anything I have thermostat trouble and it runs cool now and again. With reference to 'poor' fuel; is there a particular fuel supplier that is better than the rest? I normally fill at Tesco (all those points!) but can't say I've ever noticed who they actually get their fuel from? I've read in some posts that the low sulphur is bad and that BP are the only ones that say they include additives to compensate for it. Is there any milage in that, do you recommend a particular supplier of fuel? TIA
- (#10479) Stewart, 29 Aug 03 17:06
Hello Stewart,
I’m sorry to say that my earlier posts do seem to be perhaps a bit misleading. I didn’t mean that the EGR alone will quickly soot up the injectors. What I should have said is that over a long period of time, the injectors soot up. This appears to be one of those things with diesel fuel.
It was pointed out to me recently that the EGR re-circulates sooty exhaust gasses into the inlet manifold, and soot builds up in the inlet manifold which effects the air flow. Logic suggests that this must also have some effect on the injectors. Not much maybe, but an effect over time. It was also pointed out that the EGR reduces the octane rating of the fuel, which in turn leads to excessive smoke. This must also have a cumulative effect over time.
The specialist who reconditioned my injectors recently said it needs to be done “infrequently”. When pressed further he said “only if you have a big smoke problem”. I guess that infrequent would be in the realms of 50 - 60,000 Kms, as that is what mine has done, and was smoking like a chimney.
On the issue of fuel, I had a long conversation with a chap that was pretty hung up on the MPG he was getting on his merc (van), and had done lots of things to improve it. One thing he pointed out is that under load, only 60 to 70% of the fuel is burnt. In France and Germany, the only diesel available is what they call Bio diesel. This is in fact 95% Dino diesel and only 5% Bio diesel. Even so it improves the burnt fuel to 90 to 95%. Any way, this set me of on a surfing session to try to make some sense of it all. What I noticed was that bp are the only company to make this claim, and that’s good enough reason for me to use their fuel wherever possible. Well that and the fact that they are only just around the corner, I pass them twice a day at least, and they also happen to be the cheapest outlet in town. Even so, if you are prepared to add some diesel additives every time you fill up, this will add lubricants to it no matter which type you use. My belief is that this is about as much as can be done to extend the “infrequent” period between having the injectors reconditioned.
I hope that helps to clarify the position.
Dave Bright
- (#10480) dave Bright, 30 Aug 03 5:07
A nice clear explanation Dave. I found that my injectors were fairly sooted up and there was some erosion around the injection body valve seat. This erosion, which shows as a small irregular cavity, definitley upsets the spray pattern, as demonstrated to me by the local Company who renovated them for me.
I am fortunate in having a spare set of injectors (un-renovated) but, I can say that with the new seats and nozzles, there was a noticebly livelier performance and, a definite improvement in fuel consumption.
I am biased towards BP (They pay my pension)but,I do feel that their diesel is a quality product with some extra additives to improve burn and lubricity. However, with my paronoia over the injection pump lacking lubrication from these low sulphur fuels, I always use an additive when re-filling the fuel tank
- (#10481) John Davis, 30 Aug 03 7:09
Thank you John.
- (#10482) dave Bright, 30 Aug 03 11:52
sorry to sound like a novice here, but what is egr?if disconnecting it increases mpg, where is it, how do i do it?
on the subject of fuel comsumption, have just completed 1400km round trip and measured fuel comsumption. i'm getting 8.96 km/l good/bad/ugly??
thanks
- (#10483) eddie arrowsmith, 30 Aug 03 13:42
EGR ='exhaust gas recirculation' - how to disable is on this page - but apparently photos and more info are on the main site/s.
Look at the rear of engine and follow the exhaust from the manifold - you will note it branching off to the egr valve (flying saucer) and back into the intake manifold - principal is that by recirculating an amount of exhaust gas, emmissions are reduced to more stringent levels than those required in the UK - American cars also have egr
- (#10484) chris turner, 30 Aug 03 17:00
Eddie, read the other posts on this thread + I found a great picture of the engine compartment with all the vaccuum pipes etc marked and described.....But for the life of me I can't find it again; perhaps someone else knows where it is? There is another picture though that shows the actual EGR valve, and plenty of reading about it. Follow the Ace Answers link at the top of this page then Ace Archives. look under fuel syst. Exh gas recycling and then view the picture (Townie icon) - egr view of arrangement (Ray Woolmer). Shows the basic engine removed. The EGR valve is at the top left of the engine (as viewed in the picture)and the vaccuum pipe connection stub is clearly visible. That's the one I took off and blanked off (stick a plug up it or fold over and wrap a tie wrap round it...bloody good invention, them things).
With regards to fuel economy I have been getting between 26-28mpg. I'm in the throws of checking it after disabling egr at the moment.
Thanks others for your comments. Dave, did the overhauled injectors do the trick, any more trouble? I think the bottom line is that I'm going to have to do mine. Are they straight forward things to get out? Anything particular to watch out for?
- (#10485) Stewart, 30 Aug 03 17:25
Remember that not all townies have EGR- I believe it's autos only...
- (#10486) david miller, 31 Aug 03 2:00
To be completely honest Stewart, I hardly know where to start.
First, the description of the pipe work is found at http://mpvi.net/ia/ievacian.htm
A picture of the pipe work is found at http://mpvi.net/ia/vacpipe.jpg
Mileage. I don’t know how much difference the reconditioned injectors have had yet, as I am trying to get as far as I can on a full tank of diesel. (My fuel gauge is about as accurate as the old temperature gauge, so a tank full of diesel is the only accurate way to calculate the MPG). I seem to have stumbled from one problem to another. Once the engine had been rebuilt, I managed to get nearly 300 Kms out of slightly over ½ a tank. Then I realised that the turbo wasn’t working. I sorted the vacuum pipes, thanks to Ian Dunse’s information on the links above, refilled the fuel tank and reset the trip. After the gauge had dropped to halfway between ½ and ¾ it had only done 76 Kms. Then I noticed a drip underneath the bus, and found that it was diesel leaking from the injector pump. Fixed that, and I am now halfway through the latest tank full.
Injector removal. This is quite involved. As my cylinder head was coming off, my mechanic was getting quite frustrated. The fuel pipes had to come off the injectors, and be moved out of the way. This could only be achieved by removing the other end of the pipes from the fuel pump. In order to remove them, the starter motor had to come out, and to do that, the battery had to be disconnected.
If you want to go the whole hog, remove the inlet manifold, and remove the carbon deposits.
Good luck
dave Bright
- (#10487) dave Bright, 31 Aug 03 3:33
Dave, the starter does NOT have to come out to remove the injection pipes...
- (#10488) david miller, 31 Aug 03 14:20
Stewart,
Removing the injectors is quite straightforward, except perhaps for number four. I think they are 17mm spanner size and, of course, you will need an open ended spanner and a socket.
"Anything particular to watch out for?"
Yes. The spill tube or fuel return pipe is quite fragile and easily distorted. If you break it, it is quite easily re-soldered but the trick is to lift each flange a bit at a time. Number four injector washers are a bit hard to locate and a small mirror helps. The injection pipes, from the pump to the nozzle, are quite rigid and it helps to slacken them at the pump as well. This allows more freedom of movement when drawing out the injector.
The engine manual, code RMO25E, gives a lot of information and is invaluable for this kind of job. If you have not got it, your Toyota dealer can obtain it and it costs less than a tenner.
- (#10489) John Davis, 31 Aug 03 15:48
Thanks all for the info. I'm going to order that engine manual. I can remember being surprised on how 'cheap' the Toyota engine manual was for my Cruiser....Suppose they know they'll easily make it up on the price of spares!!
- (#10722) Stewart, 1 Sep 03 17:12
i was told not to use solvents to clean my egr....any sugestions.....it wont pass an emissions test
- (#10897) joe, 27 Sep 03 15:12