(Home) Alas poor temperature gauge, I knew him well

Yes, I too am now a victim, although not in the ususal way!
Mine has been running faultlessly since we got it, about nine months ago.
I did a visual check of all the water pipes I could see, and all looked to be in good nick.
I always use inhibitor coolant in the system, not plain water.

My wife was driving the other day, and it started to lose power, then began to smoke from the passenger seat.

She was very quickly off the side of the road and stopped.
We both keep a good eye on the gauges (we have owned FIATs!) and she said the temp gauge didn't move an inch.

When they checked, there was no water visible, so they filled it up - or tried to - it ran out the bottom as fast as they put it in the top!

It seems that a water pipe on the bottom has burst, dumping all the water out. With no water, the gauge didn't register any change (they do read on the water in the engine don't they?) and the only sign was the slowing of the motor as it tried to sieze.

It now spins very easily, as thought there is no compression.

I am not looking for answers here (yet - let's get it apart first!), just a little sympathy!!!!!(boo hoo).

We were preparing to go on a long holiday in it soon, and a cooling system flush and test was on the list before we left, but it's too late now.

Sorrowfully,

Dave (from Perth, Western Australia)
- (#10242) DaveW, 18 Aug 03 4:30

That sounds like I am really down about it all - It's not really that bad - well the car is, but I can live with it.
We will be doing the work ourselves (well my Dad will!), and I will post details when I know more.

With any luck it will be cheaper to put in another engine - anyone know if the 3.0ltr from the Hilux Surf will fit (HeHeHeHe!)

Dave.

- (#10243) DaveW, 18 Aug 03 4:57

Dave,
Your Shakespearian posting is very apposite except, it's not the Masterace which should be likened to poor Yorick, but the infernal temperature gauge.

"they do read on the water in the engine don't they?"

Yes, the gauge does "read" from the sensor at the top of the block, above the starter but, I have never trusted that Toyota gauge. Others with more electronic knowledge than I have, may confirm (Dave Mason?) that the gauge seems to be biased towards the middle postion and only seems to get going when the trouble(temp rise) is already doing it's damage. With your water level, probably below the sensor location, due to the burst hose, I should have thought that the gauge would have started to rise anyway as the sensor would have been in a very hot, air filled cavity. It may be that it's construction is designed to give peace of mind in most conditions, except when you really need to know. After the discussions and recommendations on this board re gauges, I fitted the Durite gauge on my Masterace and this gauge & sender are much more senstitive. I would suggest that when you are back on the road, a better gauge would pay dividends and, also, consider the early warning system/device which Dave Mason has designed.

- (#10244) John Davis, 18 Aug 03 9:00

Of course the whole van is not dead, but "Alas poor Masterace engine and/or temp gauge" seemed a little long and clumsy!

As to the temp gauge, I was seriously considering it before we took our trip.
I still believe that with a 'catastrophic' failure of the water system, losing all the water in a matter of seconds (It is a BIG failure), even a Durite type gauge would not have reacted in time to avert the problem.

I had also discussed with my Father the audible alarm that is offered on this site.

It seems that because of the fine running of the vehicle up to this point that it was not a gradual failure of the head or gasket, neither has the viscous fan failed. It was (so it would seem) solely down to the burst pipe.
When it bust, the temperature spiked upwards quickly, too quickly for the regular temp gauge to indicate (even as bad as it is, it would normally register - "OOPS too late").

And my understanding of these sensors is that they need the specific heat qualities of water (or coolant at least) to operate properly. In my old FIAT, the gauge would actually read cold when there was no water in it! (But we filled the FIAT and it would kick over and run beautifully - so forgiving!)

I had also discussed with him getting an oil temp gauge fitted, but he said they don't measure engine temp accurately, as the oil does doesn't hold it's heat in the same way - didn't really understand, but he said it wouldn't be worth it - wouldn't keep a good eye on the head temp?

Unfortunatley, money doesn't allow us to do the things we want to when we want to, otherwise I would have already had a pressure test, better temp gauge, along with a few other things!

Dave.

- (#10245) DaveW, 18 Aug 03 20:43

Well, it is official - The motor is dead.

It seems that all the pipes and hoses are in fact intact - It was actually a split in the left radiator tank. Not a failing gasket, nor a failing fan!

The result is that the motor is going to be replaced - parts to fix it are almost as much over here, and that is with us doing the work - which we probably can't anyway it seems. Is it actually possible to overhaul the engine in situ?

Anyway, we have decided to replace it altogether.
Cost is $3000 (AUS) with a cooling system test/flush/repair, along with replacing any other little bits that need it.
That comes with a 6 month warranty. Compared to about $2000 for parts to overhaul it ourselves, and then no warranty - assuming we could get the special tools required - and it is no choice!
A head over here is $500, plus then about $500 to recondition it!

We still don't know the actual damage internally, but it is at least rings - no compression. Because it overheated it probably means a head as well. Almost cheaper and definitely better to get someone else to do it!

If you have just bought one, or if you are worried about it, get the cooling system pressure tested and cleaned! It may save you big lots of money!
- (#10366) DaveW, 25 Aug 03 22:43

Yes, all the evidence points to the Toyota temperature gauge only moving when the temperature rises above 110 deg C and because that's so useless you won't be in the habit of looking at it anyway.
I agree with John that with the sensor in the (2CT) head it should continue to sense the temperature of the metalwork even if there is no coolant around (ghastly thought).
I don't know about FIATs, but I assume some cars have the temperature gauge in the top of the radiator or somewhere else - in which case they might not indicate a massive loss of coolant, such as from a burst hose, because, as Dave W says, they rely on the coolant to carry the "heat" to the gauge sensor.
A catastrophic loss of coolant is a difficult scenario for a 2CT to survive. I believe that our simple audible temperature alarm modification offers the best potential protection - certainly my reaction is to lift my right foot the instant it sounds. I wonder too if even a burst hose is actually due to a preliminary overheating situation - which, too, would be indicated by the modification - whether due to a leak starting, faulty viscous fan coupling, thermostat or whatever.
The modified gauge will indicate anything above 95 deg C and the audible alarm can be set to sound at any temperature you consider beyond "normal". Even if you don't drive across the Alps you'll know it's working because it'll usually sound for a few seconds when you restart a hot engine after standing a few minutes e.g. a fuel stop on a long journey.

- (#10434) Dave Mason (Sussex), 26 Aug 03 5:51

Hi Dave

Any chance of a variation on the alarm that yodels instead of beeps when climbing mountains? Nice little gadget for Clive to show off to his new Austrian friends.

- (#10435) Ian Dunse, 26 Aug 03 7:53

Yes, you can have one into which you can download any tune you want, but the price and delivery might not be so attractive. And consider the downside - you might spend time reaching for your phone when you should be dealing with potential overheating!
For owners still undecided
compared with the excellent Durite gauge, our modification is easier and quicker to do, cheaper (£25 all in, £24 in UK), easier to hide aesthetically, and more useful because you don't have to keep your eye on it.

- (#10436) Dave Mason (Sussex), 26 Aug 03 10:22

Hello everyone, just an update.

It seems that on thourough investigation, the left side tank of the main radiator did not split, but rather has CORRODED!
My understanding is that Japanese water is very good quality, so even if they were using only water, the engines generally stay pretty good.
The previous owner in Australia must have been using tap water in it for it to corrode so badly.
There was coolant in it when we bought it, and I only use coolant.

I am pretty sure that most temp senders will not draw enough heat from the air to register properly, but I may be wrong. If I am right then the sounder would not have helped, but a more accurate gauge May have registered the drop in temp.

The engine was purring like a kitten before it with absolutely no indication of a problem, so I am confident that the cause was solely the radiator failure. My Father is well aware of the viscous fan problem (His landcruiser has the same setup, and same problem once) and that is fine.

We were on the verge of fitting a better gauge, spurred on to it by a planned trip to the Eastern States (9000kms return!). Didn't have the money before, definitely don't now, but will do anyway! (And we are flying now!)

Any chance of a price to have the alarm bits sent to Perth, Western Australia?
And what would be the best way to handle that?

Thanks,

Dave.

- (#10437) DaveW, 27 Aug 03 20:26

I have checked with more people who should know and the universal answer seems to be that the temp gauge will not read when there is no water in the engine.
The temp in the head itself is not enough (or maybe not in the right place) to register with the way the sender is designed. This seems to be a fairly universal system, and the people I have spoken to agree with my experience. When you lose enough water that it no longer circulates past the sender, the temp gauge will drop.

None of them have experience with the 2CT motor, but all agree that this system is normal.

I don't know how you would test it.
The problem then comes about that the gauge, being only capable of registering 'cold', 'OK', and 'Oops, too late' also will not register the drop in temp signal associated with this water loss, until it is too late.
The 'Audible alarm' also wouldn't work as that reads only on overtemp.
A Durite type gauge may (should) have signalled to us.

Don't take this in any way as a criticism of these things. The Audible alarm in particular will notify of almost all nomal temp problems.
We will still be fitting a better gauge, and also the sounder system. Although they MAY not have helped in this case, they will help in almost all others!

Dave.

- (#10438) DaveW, 28 Aug 03 22:07

Dave, I hate to disagree, but the Durite gauge is no better than DaveM's device. Both make the display linear over the operating range. I had the durite installed, works very well.
It seems common enough for gauges to go "off" when the coolant disappears, I've seen the same happening on a Citroen diesel. But the gauge won't instantly go to zero, as there's still SOME transmission of heat through the sender body from the head.
Perhaps the best safeguard for this kind of situation is a thermal switch on the L/H rad tank or thereabouts. When I was configuring my electric fan setup, I ended up using three sensors, and put an LED indicator on the dash for each. One (about 55c, IIRC)on the cold end of the rad, the other two (100c and 107c IIRC) on the outlet neck.
55 to turn the fan on LOW + green light
100 to turn it on HIGH + amber light
107 for red light.

The beauty of this was the red light was TOO HOT, the green light telling that the engine was either warming up OR the rad was cold.

A red with no green meant no water, regardless of the gauge reading. Seriously time to stop!

- (#10439) david miller, 29 Aug 03 1:41

Hello Dave W
I have been investigating the possibility of fitting a pressure gauge to the cooling system, to indicate not only if there has been a sudden and catastrophic loss of coolant, but also if the radiator cap is failing.

I have found that Suzuki make a 15psi pressure gauge, that they fit to their marine engines. The part number is 34650-92E10

If anyone is interested they can find a local distributor in the UK at http://www.suzukimarine.co.uk/
Hope that helps
dave Bright (Bournemouth)

- (#10440) dave Bright, 29 Aug 03 1:55

Dave Miller, am I missing something?
Does the Audible alarm also modify the gauge readout?
I thought it was simply a sounding device set to go at the nominated temp. I assumed that it wouldn't sound if the temp goes down, only up?
If the unit also makes the gauge read properly than I will do that alone. Even better! I was going to fit both - to have a gauge that actually told useful info, and the warning buzzer to scare us if we forget to check! If this does it in one, then great - I'll do it.

And as to the durite - I only suggested that it MAY react quickly enough - I still think that this type of failure, totally unexpected, would almost always result in overheating before notice of any sort is given.

That pressure warning would possibly be the only thing that could have avoided our trouble, although your warning lights would have been useful to us.
Have you got it set up to read on the actual alloy temp? My father was speaking about an old add-on gauge that had a sensor that attached to the outside of the engine block to read the actual block temp - that may also have helped.

This is getting more and more interesting.

Thanks,
Dave.

- (#10441) DaveW, 29 Aug 03 3:22

Yes, Dave's add- on affects the gauge as well as offering a sounder :)

- (#10442) david miller, 29 Aug 03 7:58

Our modification sounds the audible alarm when the sender temperature exceeds the level set by the owner. It does not provide a low temperature alarm - which would be a very difficult thing to specify. No problem supplying worldwide. They go letterpost. One got to New Zealand in two days.
A few owners already report the alarm detecting low coolant level which suggests that if coolant leaks out of the engine when it is running (or wasn't sucked back in when it cooled) then heat conducted through the metalwork will raise the temperature of the sensor. Who knows whether that is good enough to deal with sudden loss of all the coolant, or starting up the engine with no coolant at all? probably depends on the general state of the engine as much as the sensitivity of the temperature monitor.

- (#10443) Dave Mason (Sussex), 29 Aug 03 11:18

Yes, she's back, and she's beautiful.

We got our van back on Saturday, and it runs beautifully.
They have also managed to adjust the fuel injection etc so that it doesn't puff at all, but it still seems to have some power!
It now goes alright, but it doesn't even seem to puff when you go away from the lights - I MAY have seen a little puff when I really jumped on it from the lights, but I'm not sure.

The new engine is a low Km from Japan, and there are a few differences - dipstick for instance! - Which I guess are due to it being a newer 2CT.

As an added bonus, everything that worked before still works! - not always an assured thing after major work.

If anyone in Perth wants to know more, I will post details.

I am a happy little camper now (But quite a bit poorer!)

Dave.

- (#10706) DaveW, 7 Sep 03 19:26


Hello Dave

Sorry to read about your masterace engine problems. Mine too had the corroded radiator but I was fortunate to find this before any major problems. The radiator repair place down here in Bunbury did say however that the imported used cars all had a similar problem and recommended recoring them. The oil filter I found also to be the Z334 that fits the Toyota Bundera/ Landcruisers the cheaper auto parts store or the discount auto parts. Yet to find cheaper air and fuel filters. The Masterace is going well and the wife and I are quickly filling up those vacant seats.

Regards Neil Bunbury Western Aust

- (#10493) Neil, 16 Sep 03 0:27

G'day Neil,

I was just about to have the system checked before a trip over east, but oops too late!
The annoying thing was that the engine itself was running so well, without even the hint of a problem.

I have also been told that the radiators on the imports are usually suspect, because they apparently use thinner material for jap market cars. All I can think was that the previous Aussie owner used Perth tap water!

The little bus is running like a dream again, but we are now flying!
While over there we will be borrowing an automatic Tarago (petrol) so it will be an interesting comparison for us - I will report back when we return.

I can get oil filters for about $30-$35, but air and fuel are closer to about $50. The bloke who did the engine change-over only charged us $20 for the new air filter though? That was the only thing they charged over the original quote price - even the radiator repair was included.

We are now somewhat poorer, but happy in the knowledge that the bus is just about perfect!

Dave.
- (#10494) Dave W, 16 Sep 03 4:48

Hello Dave

Good to here your Masterace is running fine again. Where did you source you replacement motor it could be handy for future parts if I require them? I am a bit concerned over the availability of a 2CT timing belt as will require at 100 thousand kilometers which is still a couple of years away. I was wondering how you found the parts availabilty recently?
If you have the time take a look at the website www.newsonjapan.com go to the left side menu under directory select business then automotive then import export. There are used parts dealers that export parts. Maybe handy if you looking for those hard to find parts.
Well enjoy those eastern states drivers in your travels. Where abouts you headed for? Not bloody Sydney I hope!

Regards Neil Bunbury Western Australia

- (#10748) Neil, 17 Sep 03 18:31