hi
i have a 2000 model toyota spacia (8 seat people mover in australia) auto petrol 2.0L.
i have a problem with an odorless gas in the cabin.
i have posted this problem in the past and i have not fixed the problem to date and it is still causing me grief.
i have been doing some tests of late to isolate the problem and have found a question that someone out there may know the answer to.
i have been conducting carbon dioxide co2 measurements in the cabin and noticed the cabin co2 levels decrease when the vehicle is moving and increase when the vehicle is stationary when the vent is set to "recirculate".
i know if the vehicle is stationary and the vent is set to "outside" and the vent fan is running then the levels drop, and also drop if the vent is set on "outside" (no fan) and vehicle is moving.
so why do the co2 levels drop if the car is moving and vent set to "re-circulate"?
does this mean as the vehicle moves faster thru the air the vent allows more air in acting like vent is set to "outside" (thus lower co2 levels)? or is the co2, or air freshedned, extracted by other means?
thanks
z e l k o
- (#11805) zelko, 18 Nov 03 21:56
My god, I'm surprised you're still alive & haven't died of Carbon Monoxide poisoning yet, or at least killed someone else whilst you were unconcious. If i remember correctly you posted to this forum a couple of months ago, with a couple of dozen replies coming back your way. I assume that you didn't BOTHER to take anyone's advise from this forum about stopping using the vehicle, before someone gets hurt. It is fairly obvious that the exhaust fumes are rising into the car from a leak in your exhaust or manifold, when you are moving, more of it is getting diverted by airflow, so less % CO enters the cabin. If you can't find the fault, get a whole new exhaust & manifold, like a say BEFORE someone dies.
Regards Rob.
- (#11889) Rob Drinkwater, 19 Nov 03 17:32
hi bob
yes i am persistant.
i can control the effect by blocking the air vents so in in effect i can control the danger element.
i think the gas is not coming in through the air vents but blocking them stops the problem and i think what is happening is that gas is coming in via some other means but the air vents help it come in by creating an airflow for the gas.
if i can understand how air movement is achieved in the vehicle then maybe i can find the source of the problem.
thanks
z e l k o
- (#11890) zelko, 19 Nov 03 21:15
Not so hard to understand. Whether by ram effect through the movement of the vehicle causing a high pressure zone at it's front, or via the action of the van, air is forced into the vehicle. That should result in the cabin being at positive pressure.
This pressure will leak out through the outlet grilles at the rear of the cabin- in the case of the townie, they're in the tailgate. There are non- return flaps on to stop the inflow of air at these grilles. On some cars, these grilles might be in s clean low pressure zone, where thay will actively suck the air out, but not in the townace.
In the townace the rear of the vehicle will be turbulent, so I'd guess that'd be a good place to start looking for a leak, although the whole under floor needs checking...
- (#11891) david miller, 20 Nov 03 2:37
Hello Zelko, its nice to here that your still with us.
I have some questions for you. Where in the world are you? What level of traffic are you driving in? How many people are in your van when the CO2 Levels are rising?
Now that the colder weather has arrived in the UK, I have noticed the cold draft has returned on my van. I haven't traced it yet, but I believe its air flow getting in via the front light assemblies. If this is common to most Aces, then any forward movement would allow air in, and could help to reduce the CO2 levels in your van, even with the airflow on recirculation. Now this is a complete guess I’m afraid, but there is a possibility that this CO2 is being produced by bacteria living in the air conditioning condensers, so you could try disinfecting it. There’s some helpful information on the archives under Aircon/Smelly aircon and air vents. Have a read, and try it.
Regards
dave Bright
- (#11892) dave Bright, 20 Nov 03 2:58
How reliable is your co2 equipment - I ask because I had a recent experience of believing equipment readings that I later found to be faulty.
I also have a 12 volt Co2 auto meter (hot wire)- but it needs calibrating each time it is moved - and certainly couldnt be used in a moving vehicle - what equipment are you using?
As already outlined, it can only be exhaust, air con or a split engine (crankcase gas) breather tube.
You also need a good tailgate seal otherwise exhaust gas may be sucked in
Hope you get it sorted soon - if the Co2 doesnt kill you, the worry might do!
- (#11893) chris turner, 20 Nov 03 8:45
Another thought...Some time back I had air in the cooling system - when hot, I believe it 'vented' slightly through the front heater matrix. No puddles in the footwell but a strong antifreeze smell from the vents. It only stopped when I got rid of the air.
So, perhaps a more bizzare theory for you to check out - but is there any exhaust gas getting in coolant?
- (#11894) chris turner, 20 Nov 03 12:15
I think we've lost the plot here, this must be a SBV model, the original postee says it's a 2000 model, so it won't be a cab over model, therefore he's sitting behind the engine, which is why the gasses are coming into the vehicle, just as they would on a normal car, rather than being pushed away from the cabin by the air flow underneath.
Regards Rob.
- (#11895) Rob Drinkwater, 20 Nov 03 19:22
hi there
thanks for all your suggestions....
rob,
yes is a SBV type vehicle with engine in front
chris,
gas in the coolant? don't know. there is no smell when a/c is on/off. there is no smell at all, just a horrible effect
chris,
i am using a TSI 8551 co2/co/temp/ meter. works fine. if i place it near exhaust reading goes up; if i place it near my breathing out reading goes up. the reason i originally started to measure co2 is that vehicle exhaust contains high levels of it so i thought if i could detect co2 in the cabin then the assumption was that exhaust must be present.i breathed out thru a tube connected to the outside so my lung exhaust c02 would not interfere with the reading. i could not detect any co2 level changes doing this.
dave,
i am in australia, sydney. traffic is not that bad but the problem seems worse in traffic but the problem is also there even if there is no traffic - i have taken a drive in early morning and problem is still there. i think driving in traffic only adds to the problem.
only me in the van when driving and doing tests.
when i say "the co2 level increase/decrease" i am referring to the co2 i breathe out and how it builds up if the vehicle is stationary and decreases when the vehicle is moving even with the air vent set to re-circulate. this happens more dramatically when the air vent is set to "outside".
it is almost as if the air vent opens slightly at high speed thus explaining the co2 drop.
i don't think there is any bacteria in air vent because if this was the cause of my problems then i would be affected when vehicle is stationary. i only get the problem when vehicle engine is running and vehicle is moving thru the air
you will be surprised how many holes there are in a vehilce! simplest way to test for suspected leaks is to
park car in garage, seal water holes in bottom of all doors and tailgate, run the inside fan on full, open vent to "outside", close all windows and doors and then light an incense stick and then walk around the vehicle and place the incense stick near the suspect area and if it glows brighly then there is air coming out that area!! watch the battery charge though.
can use a disco/nighclub smoke machine as well but then there is the cost of hire. with the smoke machine need to work on a particular area at a time. not a good idea to fill the cabin with the smoke as it leaves a oily (glycerol) water residue on everything.
david,
i have placed the co2 meter in the cavity near the rear tailgate vent and i have not been able to detect any co2, and thus exhaust, and do not think the rear tailgate vent is causing a direct problem but i do think that, indirectly, it does help the problem gas to leak into the vehicle
if air is being forced into the vehicle by the high pressure at the front then is the air being forced in thru some front opening? front vent maybe?
the only openings in the vehicle are:
a)front vent grill below front windscreen
b)water outlet holes in the bottom of doors
c)cavity strip between front and rear wheelarches left and right sides (two sheet metal plates are brought together under the vehicle. between the plates air can enter the inside vehicle cavity. can test by pouring water into the cavity and watching where it leaks)
d)rear right side vent beneath bumper
i am convinced this cannot be an exhaust problem as i would detect changes in co2 levels if copious amount of exhaust was getting into cabin and i cannot, other than the co2 i breathe out.
interesting experiment i did recently ....
i parked the car in the garage and attached a tube to the exhaust pipe and sealed around any leaky areas with muffler putty.
i then sat in the car, ran the engine, and observed any effects. i was affected, but slighlty. again effect was that of tiredness, out-of breath, head spin, didn't want to open the eyes when i closed, etc.
so could it be that the source of the problem is somewhere away from the exhaust pipe end, either a leaky exhaust/manifold (but surely co2 meter would show this up and it didn't) or is there some other type of gas being generated that is in higher volumes when car is reving higher and is movning thru the air?
what gas?
not co2 or co. have measured both and none seem to there
thanks
z e l k o
- (#11896) zelko, 21 Nov 03 4:39
Zelco.
Please stop trying to kill yourself.
Go down to your Toyota dealer and get them involved.
- (#11897) dave Bright, 21 Nov 03 5:43
Zelco - being a smoker I know that when a vehicle is moving, there will be a vacuum effect in the cabin (removing co2 etc.) - this can be dramatically enhanced by opening a window 6mm.
The fresh air and recirculate flaps are not airtight, so you will always get some fresh air entering the cab (particularly when moving) - also as you point out there are a number of holes in the vehicle.
Please take Daves advice - personally I think you may be worrying too much/overfocused on this issue and if it hasn't already, the worry will soon make you ill - If you can't sort it (and its been some months now),leave it with Toyota. If they don't find a problem then part exchange for another vehicle - surely the current one isn't worth all this grief?!
- (#11928) chris turner, 21 Nov 03 10:24
hi there
i have tried to get toyota involved. they have not been helpful. they have driven the vehicle and say they cannot detect any effect. they also hired an external consultant who measured CO levels in vehicle. that report came back with nothing (even if there was exhaust in the vehicle from the vehicle itself the catalyctic converter cleans up the CO and so there is very little to detect. report did not quantify what levels were present. was not the best report)
if i can figure out what is going on then i will approach them and say fix it. if they become difficult then i will have to take legal action.
the reason why i am persistant is i have had 2 other, different type, of toyota vehicles with the same, or similar, problems and want to get to the bottom of this one as it will help me in the future with other vehicles. i am not sure if problem is just with toyota vehicles but that is the brand i seem to buy more often. i let the other two problems go and i am not prepared to do that with this one just yet .
thanks
z e l k o
- (#11929) zelko, 21 Nov 03 23:42
You are using unleaded fuel arn't you?
- (#11930) daveBright, 22 Nov 03 5:18
Zelko
It may be helpful if you devise a chart for yourself to put the whole thing into context.
+ if you are going to sue etc., you will need fairly damning evidence from another party also.
1)Co2 in fresh air
2)Co2 with driver in cab after 1/2 hr (engine off)
3)Co2 with driver in cab after 1/2 hr (engine running)
(could add a recirculate / fresh air fan setting to this)
4)Co2 after 1/2 hr when driven
(could add a recirculate / fresh air fan setting to this)
5) List Co2 air level known to be hazardous to health/fatal
This will graphically illustrate the level of percieved danger - however I would suggest you have your Co2 equipment calibration checked.
As stated the flaps for recirculate etc. (at least ones I have seen) are not anywhere like 100% airtight.
1)Have you recorded Co2 under the hood?
2)inside the air vents?
3)sniffing the coolant etc.?
You haven't posted the Co2 readings that you feel are a hazard - this would make things more tangible.
From your original post, did you see a doctor to see if there are any possible medical causes?
Personally I still think it would be easier (on yourself) replacing the car.
- (#11931) chris turner, 22 Nov 03 9:00
hi guys
if you follow the rugby, congratulations on the rugby world cup!
dave,
yes, unleaded fuel.
i am curious, i never see the sbv model type townace on you web pages. is this type of vehicle not available in uk? it would be interesting to compare if someone had a sbv type if they have a similar problem.
chris,
i do not think co2 is the problem. i measured co2 levels because:
1) it is in the vehicle exhaust gas so if i see it creeping up in the cabin then i can assume it is from the vehicle exhaust (only if i exhaust my lung co2 to the outside thru tube so lung co2 does not interfere with measurements.
i could not detect any co2 increase as a result of vehicle exhaust getting in.
2) i had sealed all possible air inlet areas and was concerned that co2 would be too high and that this was causing a problem. and yes levels were too high so i eased back on the sealing and when i did so the original problem got worse so i know that either the gas is getting in thru the holes i sealed or the sealed holes were assisting another area to allow the gas in. the problem gas is unknown
3) co2 meters are readily available
i did compare co2 levels with the other car i have, which does not have this problem, and they are similar.
the effect of high co2 levels is different to the oiginal spacia problem effect.
on the good car (toyota corolla 2000) i did seal similar air holes on the bottom of the vehicle and took for a test drive and the effect was asphixiating. it is an effect that does take a while to wear off (makes you feel tired and you feel like you cannot wake up during the whole day. a bit like when you have had a bad nights sleep and you cannot wake all day)
the same asphixiating effect happens on the spacia when i seal all round except the spacia has a larger inside cabin space so the asphixiation effect is not as bad, for the same time driven as the corolla.
i have a table of co2 levels in a book at home but do not have then with me now.
i can say ambient co2 levels are aroun 350-400ppm. people complain about "stuffiness" when levels get to 600-700ppm.
i was registering over 2000ppm for 20 minutes sitting in stationary corolla and spacia with all windows and vents closed. this level drops to aroung 800-1000ppm when vehicle is moving. interesting that co2 levels are quite high in the cabin even when car is moving. i do not feel too much at 800-1000ppm - feels normal, but maybe that explains why we get tired when going on long drives. it is important to keep the vent open when on long drives to keep the co2 levels down.
with the vent on "outside" the co2 levels drop to ambient in <5minutes doing 100km/hr in the country.
not a good idea to keep the vent open in traffic driving as you get all the fumes from other cars and that can wear you down after a while.
yes i did measure co2 under the hood. now the interesting thing here was there was some co2 increase around the engine manifold area. could not pinpoint. would you believe the co2 meter i had seemed to be sensative to tempereature changes. i am getting the hire company to check this out.
it is difficult to measure under the hood as there is a lot of radiator fan air and heat, and you have to make sure the tail exhaust is not blown to the front area by wind etc. still working on this
no co2 in the airvents that i can detect. i think this may be worth exploring further.
don't know about the coolant. seems to be clean. no bubbles. why sniff the coolant? do you think i have a blown headgasket and oil and exhaust are mixing? definitely no headgasket problems.
i did record co2 levels in the rear tailgate door. when i climbed a hill the co2 levels went up (1200ppm). when i decended a hill, the co2 levels went down (700-800ppm). co levels went from 0ppm- 5ppm to 0ppm respectively. this has been the only consistant quantitative result i have had. the only problem is the same thing happens to the corolla rear hatch door. i did remove the potential gas inlet hole (the rear door latch was completely removed) and sealed the open door latch area and then took for a drive. the problem effect was still there. i did not have the co2 meter at this stage to verify there was no co2, and thus exhaust, in the rear tailgate. will verify when i hire co2 meter again.
yes i agree would be easier to replace car. in the end i may have to, but not just yet. i am determined to find the problem. i have been learning a lot from this experience and it curiosity has the better of me for the time being.
thanks
z e l k o
- (#11932) zelko, 22 Nov 03 19:58
Is there some confusion here?
CO = carbon monoxide
a product of combustion, odourless and very poisonous. Start a headache, end up dead.
CO2 = carbon dioxide
naturally present in the atmosphere, put into fizzy drinks to make them fizz, and used in fire extinguishers. Harmless unless you have so very much that you smother - unlikely unless you set off a fire extinguisher in a confined space.
Which are you worried about? And testing for? And why?
- (#11995) tony, 26 Nov 03 8:44
Think there is alot of confusion - started to wonder when ppm mentioned, thanks tony
- (#11996) chris turner, 26 Nov 03 17:59