Sometime ago people may remember me trying to get to the bottom of my overheating problems, I ended up cleaning and flushing the cooling system, replaced the rad cap and thermostat and checked the thermoviscous fan and things improved but the engine still seemed to run a bit hot for my liking (based on the gauge reading) So I continued to keep a close eye on the coolant and oil, occasionally the coolant needed topping up but not huge amounts and there was no sign of water in the oil. I even did a trip from London to Derby and back and the coolant levels were fine when I got back! Then about a month after that trip I had to drive from London to Runcorn the fluid levels were OK when I left London, I was just south of Birmingham and noticed the temp had risen well into the red then all of a sudden I lost power and white oily smoke wafted into the cab :-(. I pulled over Immediately and got recovered home. I've checked the oil again and it looks normal but the coolant resevoir is empty and no coolant is visible with the rad cap removed. I'm going to attempt to strip down myself (Manual ordered) but I'm still mystified as to the likely cause of the failure as I would have expected to lose more coolant over time had there been any sort of leak in the system, also there was no discolouration of the coolant (other than the usual rust!) Assuming it is the head gasket I'm planning on replacing the following :-
Head and gasket (Probably buy a recon head rather than skim this one but I'll have to see what it looks like when it comes off)
Radiator (get recored etc.)
Cam belt (as I'll have to take it off anyway)
Waterpump (Don't know if it's failed but might as well as the engine will be apart anyway! and it seems to be the only thing I didn't check)
Possibly replace the thermoviscous fan with an electric one.
Any tips for "gothas" on the strip down and rebuild, or additions for other things that should be checked/replaced while the engine is apart? ISTR A very detailed writeup from someone on striping the engine but I can't seem to find it anywhere, any pointers?
(At least the weathers good for it!)
Martin.
- (#11096) Martin King, 25 May 04 07:37
Just before you go pulling it all apart, fill the cooling system with water and run the engine for a bit to see what happens. It’s a long shot, very long shot, but it might have just sprung a leak somewhere and not need major surgery.
The likelihood is though that the head gasket went and the coolant was lost until it reached the boil over point. As you lost all power, it may have caused extensive damage to the head and or block. If you do strip it down then be sure to inspect the surface of the block for minute cracks. If the engine wont crank, or sounds or feels lumpy then you might be in need of a complete engine. these are about £450 from BBC spares, but they are second hand. They also have a reconditioned one for £995 but there is carriage and VAT to add to the cost on either option.
There is nothing too difficult about a head change, it’s just time consuming to remove most of the engine bay to get at the head. If I remember correctly it goes like this. Seat and floor out. It maybe useful to remove the passenger floor at the hinges to give slightly better access. Fan cowling off and strip the front of the engine down to the cam belt. Remove the air duct and turbo pipe that go over the engine as well as the EGR valve at the inlet manifold. Disconnect the battery, remove the starter, remove the fuel pipes and the glow plug wiring. Remove the inlet manifold, undo the exhaust manifold and start to remove the head bolts.
- (#11096) dave Bright (Bournemouth), 25 May 04 09:29
Thanks Dave, you said "If the engine wont crank, or sounds or feels lumpy then you might be in need of a complete engine." Well I had to wait a few hours for the recovery guy so the engine had cooled a lot, to get it onto the loader he manged to start it and drive it on, when it started there was a fairly thick cloud of black smoke briefly from the exhaust I don't know if that provides any more clues? I'll try filling it with water as I have to move it about 100 metres from it's current location to work on it so I'll see what happens when I start it?
Martin.
- (#11096) Martin King, 25 May 04 09:36
If it ran enough to get it on the trailer then fill it up with water and run it for a bit. If it all seems ok then run about in it locally to see if it boils up. Obviously fix any leaks you find first.
UK cylinder heads do seem to be down so I will try to find their invoice later for you, but I would explore the engine first just in case
- (#11096) dave Bright (Bournemouth), 25 May 04 09:46
Right! I put water in, the main system took virtually bang on 3 litres and the expansion tank was completely empty so there had obviously been a MAJOR loss of coolant somewhere!, started the engine , it started fine, nothing unusual out of the exhaust. Drove it about 100 mtrs with no problems HOWEVER still no sign of where it's loseing the coolant from! Will have to go over it with a fine tooth comb with the engine running hot. One other question is it possible that this major overheat episode may have stressed the head gasket? I.E. is it worth replacing anyway as insurance even if the head is OK? I've got some other jobs to do such as replace the auto box fluid and sort this leak so a bit of a strip down may be in order anyway?
Martin.
- (#11096) Martin King, 25 May 04 11:17
Have had simerler problems, ie most the time the level is allright and then it would just boil up and dump all the water out of the cooling system. now having got a mason alarm i tried a few experiments, found than as long as i keep the revs above 3000 rpm on hills the temp would not go above 105c but if i just put my foot down in 5th and as the revs drop down it very quickly goes upto 115c and dumps the water out of the system, i can only assume that the fan does not move enough air or the water pump is badly corroded on the fins and is not pumping the water quick enough to cool the engine, am planning to do timing belt and pump in near future, so will operfully solve the problem if it is the pump. I would take the head off and replace the head gasket just for peace of mind after such a violent boil up, you could also take to have a pressure test on the system and see if that shows any leaks, i did mine by connecting the hose pipe to the system and pressure tested it that way, showed up a few small leaks and some of the water pipes but new juberlee clips solved them, but make sure you don't over pressure the system.
- (#11096) neil (torbay), 25 May 04 11:54
Thank Neil, until recently I hadn't considered the water pump(for some reason?!?) Is there any way of testing it either in or out of the engine? I've got an old rad cap so I'll fit a tyre valve to it and use a pump (With gauge) to pressurise the system to the max system pressure and look for leaks that way.
Martin.
- (#11096) Martin King, 25 May 04 12:07
There have been a few cases where a pressure test, carried out by a mechanic with all the professional kit they have, fails to spot the leaks. It needs to be done with a very hot engine to find some of them. You may have been extremely lucky here, but I would keep an eye on the colour of the coolant. If it starts to turn black then its a sure sign of a cracked head. What ever you end up doing I would advise you to fit a new radiator cap and one of Dave Masons temp alarms.
- (#11096) dave Bright (Bournemouth), 25 May 04 12:17
A mechanic friend of mine said that sometimes the fins rot away and you lose alot of flow, you can tell when you get it out as the fins dont have square edges any more, dont think there is any way of testing it insitu. the other failure you can check is the viscous fan, some stop turning when you get obove a certain speed, if fine a nice duel carridge way and drive along with the engine cover up you can see if the fan stops turning.... best of luck, what area do you live in...
- (#11096) neil (torbay), 25 May 04 13:08
Hi All,
I've just purchased a 1989 CR30? 2.0CT powered TownAce Super Extra 4x4 with Skylights for use as a daily driver in my mountain bike guiding business in Canada.
I'll be using it to transport clients and their bikes (on a lightweight trailer) through the local mountains and have been researching all the info avail through townace.com and the BoK regarding towing and loaded usage of these vans. I'm hoping it will do the job and data such as Neil's regarding maintaining RPMs and heat is great! I've read that keeping the tranny out of overdrive will help to keep the transmission cooler but was worried about the resulting load on the engine cooling as well...
Cheers
Andrew
- (#11096) Andrew Olive, 25 May 04 22:22
As Neil states in his post, temperature can rise dramatically if stressing the engine, say hammering it up steep hills. It's more noticeable in the warmer weather too. Another trick you can try to drop operating temperature is to drill a couple of 3mm holes in the edge of the thermostat to increase coolant flow and hence keep temperatures down.
An earlier thread on the subject which should be in the archives should describe the use of 3 such holes. This I thought to be excessive and find two holes to be more than sufficient.
For the past couple of years I have been swapping stats over in spring and at the end of autumn. My 'summer' stat has two holes in it and my 'winter' stat is unmodified.
I don't have a gauge to measure the actual temperature but with my Mason alarm fitted, the winter stat shows the ambient temperature at about two or three dots below the red on the gauge. The summer stat sits about halfway on the gauge.
Interesting to note that the original stat in the van had a threaded valve, presumably to manually alter the amount of flow? Inference being that there may have been an intent to vary the flow to match driving conditions and temperatures. I've not seen anything in print to corroborate the theory but there may be something in it.
- (#11096) Ian Dunse (Derbs), 26 May 04 01:07
Just picked up my TownAce yesterday and put on the first 500kms through the Canadian Rockies. I expect the injection pump may need some tweaking - putting out a fair bit of black smoke at lower rpms (2,500 or so) with heavier throttle. Finding I need to keep 3,000 RPM and higher (up to 4,000) to maintain reasonable speeds on hills or end up slowing down considerably and generating more black smoke.
No overheating issues - as far as I can tell, watched gauge carefully. This was an unladen trip in cooler weather too - about 10 degrees Celsius or so. Have ordered "Mason" alarm in any case for the extra information it provides. Will install at same time as disabling 100km chime. Link I found to chime removal instructions, complete with photo, no longer seems to work. Anyone have a current link?
Thanks
Andrew
- (#11096) Andrew, 28 May 04 18:06
Hello Andrew,
sounds like you may be in need of a service. New air, oil and Fuel filters and some decent oil should improve the power and reduce the smoke. In the UK we tend to use diesel additives like Millers or Wynns and they also help to reduce the smoke a bit.
As for the 100Km chime, when you fit the Mason Alarm, it is the big square metal box attached to the back of the speedometer. Just disconnect the two wires and make sure you put the screws back in.
- (#11096) dave Bright, 29 May 04 14:14
Hi Dave,
The van has had an oil change incl filter and a new air filter. I have a new (Nissan) fuel filter to install and will wait until that's in to make some assessments as to where to start... For the first fillup, I did add a healthy dose of diesel additive (KleenFlo) as recommended at a heavy truck parts center. I'm having it inspected for commercial use now - will have final results tomorrow. I did notice an oil leak however, near rear of engine, dripping down onto header pipe before exhaust turns towards the rear of the van. Not sure where it's coming from - only that there was some oil on the wire loom housing above the exhaust... Hopefully nothing serious.
Cheers
Andrew
- (#11096) Andrew - Canmore, Alberta, Canada, 30 May 04 23:06
Um what colour is your coolant?
- (#11096) dave Bright (Bournemouth), 31 May 04 02:44
Coolant appears normal - "greenish". Limited history I have of vehicle includes abovementioned recent oil/filter, air filter, timing belt and thermostat. Van currently has 114k kms. Oil leak appears to have come out from transmission dipstick/filler tube - but it didn't appear red - more brownish...(?!?) Not leaking anymore in any case. I adjusted the idle down from 1,000RPM to ~800 rpm. Idle up switch and a/c now bring the revs up to 1,000 as they should.
I changed the fuel filter today and have not noticed any improvement in low end. I know it's not a rocket but it is REALLY sluggish from a stop. More accelerator has no effect other than to blow more black smoke. I end up just lightly using the accelerator - which doesn't give me any turbo and it shifts to the next gear before I can get the revs up. The maximum fuel screw was adjusted prior to my purchase (as van had no power...) Maybe it was turned up too much?
Any ideas would be appreciated. I've read through much of the archives on this issue and feel I may need a tuning specialist to look at the pump - but would like to try myself before spending more money...
Andrew
- (#11096) Andrew, 31 May 04 23:40
Andrew, it might indeed be worth having a specialist set up the pump. Anyone with experience of the earlier VW diesels can help you. You might want to check out the forums at www.tdiclub.com for some more local knowledge.
- (#11096) David Miller, 1 Jun 04 00:40
Sounds like your ATF is well cooked. It should be thin and red, so that it can flow easily through the transmission. If its brown and thick then its needs changing. There is a possibility that this has caused your overheating and the sluggishness. Try to find an automatic gearbox specialist near you who can change the oil.
- (#11096) dave Bright (Bournemouth), 1 Jun 04 00:54
Hi All,
Van has now been through the commercial bus inspection necessary here for my business and is now ready to roll. Needed new rotors, a tie rod end and front wheel bearings.
Drained really ugly looking ATF from pan and refilled - will do again in the relatively near future as it didn't replace all the fluid, only about 3.5 litres. So fluid which was in the torque converter is still in the system but suffice to say, tranny performance is definitely smoother.
Changed the fluid in the cooling system as well - it turned out to be quite dirty. While the van had the timing belt and thermostat changed prior to my purchase, I think they must have reused the coolant. In any case, multiple fills and drains to clear the system and refilled using approx 60/40 heavy duty diesel coolant and distilled water.
Biggest improvement so far though was plugging the vacuum line to the EGR valve. NO MORE SLUGGISH STARTS. I did back off the main fuel screw a second time (another 1/8th turn) prior to disabling the EGR to little effect. I think the EGR may have been the culprit all along. I haven't been able to check smoke levels yet.
Now, waiting for my Mason Alarm and the chance to disable the speed chime.
Cheers
Andrew
- (#11096) Andrew - Canmore, Alberta Canada, 12 Jun 04 12:30