(Home) Head gasket clutching at straws

Hi all
A month ago while travelling back from Devon my townie overheated. I lost power and just managed to creep into a services when it conked out. I had white smoke coming out of exhaust and steam in the car when we lifted the seat up. When a breakdown truck came he filled up with water and we started the engine but it boiled up straight away, he said it looked like the head gasket. When I got the car back as I had to leave it where it broke down, I started it up to park up and could here the water boiling up. Is this the head gasket or am I just hoping it could be just the redcap or (.p.s. am I that naive) something else that’s going to be cheaper also as my previous message, I’m finding it difficult to get anyone to work on it in the Dagenham area, please please can someone help???
- (#13220) Tony Martin Peck, 7 Sep 04 12:38

Hello Tony,
I wouldn't say you were being naive, just hoping that its not going to be the big pain in the wallet that you think. Sadly it does sound like its going to be serious. The coolant wont boil instantly with a cold engine, it will take a bit of time to get enough heat in the engine to cause that. If you start it up with the rad cap off, and the coolant erupts out of the filler neck, then its most likely to be the head gasket. White smoke also points this way too.
- (#13220) dave Bright (Bournemouth), 7 Sep 04 12:47

thanks dave any idea of what sought of money i could be looking at.

- (#13220) Tony Martin Peck, 7 Sep 04 14:31

Are we talking diesel engine?
If so then there are some options. The most expensive is a recon engine from someone like BBC spares, around 1K + delivery + vat. The next option is a stripdown for a new gasket, although there is a possibility that the head is cracked and or warped. Recon head about £400 + delivery + vat. I did mine last year with a new water pump and injector reconditioning at a total cost just under 1K. The cheapest option is a secondhand engine, again from someone like BBC spares, for around £450 + delivery + vat.
- (#13220) dave Bright (Bournemouth), 7 Sep 04 16:11

thanks again dave thats a great help, my only problem now is getting someone to do the job, i'll keep looking.ps a friend of mine wondered if another engine type could be fitted any ideas on this.

- (#13220) Tony Martin Peck, 7 Sep 04 18:10

Actually, Dave, the cheapest option is pull head off, find no obvious cracks, get it skimmed& pressure tested, then rebuild...

- (#13220) David Miller, 8 Sep 04 00:49

If its just the head gasket then yes that is the cheapest option. Head gasket set and bolts about £80, pressure test the head £80, not sure about the skimming cost because mine was cracked so I replaced it at £400 + delivery + vat. By the time I had done all that to mine, the cost was just short of £1,000 so a second hand replacement engine at £450 would have been cheaper overall. The only downside to it would have been the unknown quality of the replacement engine.
- (#13220) dave Bright (Bournemouth), 8 Sep 04 02:28

thanks again to both of you ive manageged to find someone to take alook at the problem i;ll keep posting some updates as i get them.

- (#13220) Tony Martin Peck, 8 Sep 04 19:20

Here is the pricing I got recently ... without VAT ...
£45 2CT Head gasket (Toyota)
£75 2CT Head gasket set without head gasket (Toyota)
£50 2CT head bolts
£32 backstreet pressure test
£850 refurbished 2CT engine from APIengines

Just because the head gasket fails the head itself isn't necessarily damaged.

I believe there's a LOT more work changing the engine and with a £450 secondhand engine (no testing, no history, but replaced if faulty) there is significant risk you have to change it again. API refurbished at £850 is not recon, but inspected and renovated where necessary - bearings, gaskets etc.

- (#13220) Dave Mason (Sussex), 9 Sep 04 03:42

I guess the point I am failing to get across here is that for people who are mechanically minded, that can do much of, if not all of the work themselves, stripping the top of the engine is a low cost, or no cost thing to do. Tony is looking for a garage or a mechanic to do the work for him, so labour costs are a factor that need to be considered as well, hence my belief that a replacement engine may be the cheapest and quickest option for Tony.

I don't like to be the profit of doom, and I don't usually rush in to advise lengthy and or expensive work, but a sudden loss of power and lots of steam in the engine bay, sounds like the temperature sensitive head might have something more wrong with it than just the gasket. If this is the case, then Tony will have had to pay a mechanic to spend 9 hours just getting the head off, only to find its cracked or warped or both. Then the cost of £400 for a reconditioned head, is not that far off the cost of £450 for a replacement engine. There are risks to this of course, and I have tried to point that out. As for the work involved, 18 hours or two and a half days to change a head gasket, is about what it takes. I would have thought that swapping out an entire engine could be done in little more than a day or so.

- (#13220) dave Bright (Bournemouth), 9 Sep 04 06:39

2.5 days to change a head gasket, OK. Less than that to change an engine - that's something I've been wondering about? Perhaps you can swap the turbo, injector pump, alternator and pas pump with the engine - depends if they come on the replacement, but additionally you've got to remove and correctly put back the aircon compressor, gearbox and quite a few more hoses and wires. Plus get the whole thing in and out either the doorway or from underneath. A day or so? - maybe for two people if you've already had the head off. I'd like to hear of some experiences.

- (#13220) Dave Mason (Sussex), 9 Sep 04 08:04

Steve from Basingstoke kindly gave me an old engine, that he had left over after replacing it due to a total loss of coolant, and subsequent overheating. It is largely complete with fuel and water pumps, inlet and exhaust manifolds, and all the fuel lines and injectors still in place. There is no PS pump, Air con pump, Alternator, or Turbo, but if these can be swapped over whilst the replacement engine is out of the van, it would be easier than doing it with the engine in situe.

My mechanic was talking about pulling the engine up and out through the front passenger door, rather than out of the bottom. That would involve a lot more work in removing the cross member and anti roll bar I guess, but the gearbox would remain bolted in place, just unbolted from the engine.

One thing I have noticed though is that the fuel pumps have a different rating. The spare engine is from a 2wd new shape, post 92 model, and the pump is labelled 145, whilst the pump on my 4wd 1990 model is labelled 175. I don't know if this is significant indicating a difference in years, or if there are different pumps for 2wd and 4wd.
- (#13220) dave Bright (Bournemouth), 9 Sep 04 08:35

Having spent a few hours looking at the bottom of my 2CT lately, I'd imagine that having the car on a lift would make all the difference to getting the engine out the bottom. The mounts are on the large round cross member which would be quite tricky to handle, the car would have to go up a long way and other cross members would have to come out too. Plus if it's auto I gather disconecting the gearbox is not just a case of 6 bolts then pull off a spline.

As for the auxiliaries, I'd say it's more work to disconnect/reconnect the PS pump and aircon compressor from the car than from the engine, and if the engine was coming out upwards it would help to be leaving those items in the car. Turbo has oil and water inlets and outlets plus the join to the exhaust manifold so looks easier to attach to the engine outside the car. Injector pump likewise. Alternator not a big deal either way.

But my original point was that handling all these, getting all the systems working again properly, is something that I would take into account when tempted to buy an engine for little more than a head+gaskets etc or whatever it takes to repair the engine in situ. In my case (broken piston, head OK) the decision was even harder and I may yet need to reconsider, depending on the outcome.
- (#13220) Dave Mason (Sussex), 9 Sep 04 09:44

Dave Bright, 2.5 days to do a head gasket? Maybe for the DIY'er, but if I was a trained mechanic and it took that long I'd be ashamed of myself.

As Mr Mason points out, an engine swap is quite an involved process compared to lifting the head. Jeez, lifting off the head is a one-man job. And I'm not convinced the engine will easily come out to the top, BTW. I've seen it done at the scrappie, but there was hassle , having to get the rads etc out for forward clearance, then the hoist ended up damaging the headcloth...

But you, none of this helps Tony, unfortunately.

- (#13220) David Miller, 9 Sep 04 11:39

Ok Dave I give up.
If you say it wont come out of the door, and its more hassle than its worth to get it out of the bottom, and it takes a lot less time to change the head, then I bow to your superior knowledge and will say no more.
- (#13220) dave Bright (Bournemouth), 9 Sep 04 12:23

to all the daves who answered my plea. my townace is back after a long wait i had to get a recon head in the end as well as gasket bolts thermastat temp censor and timing belt adjustment pulley. this lot cost about £850 the garage i found done an excelent job and cost £450 expensive total but its done now. If anyone out there who can get to ilford and need work done on there townie or any over car they can contact me on my email and i will give them the details.many thanks to the three daves, i hope you are all still talking.

- (#13220) tony peck, 29 Sep 04 18:26

cluching at straws back on the road.

to all the daves who answered my plea. my townace is back after a long wait i had to get a recon head in the end as well as gasket bolts thermastat temp censor and timing belt adjustment pulley. this lot cost about £850 the garage i found done an excelent job and cost £450 expensive total but its done now. If anyone out there who can get to ilford and need work done on there townie or any over car they can contact me on my email and i will give them the details.many thanks to the three daves, i hope you are all still talking.
- (#13220) tony, 30 Sep 04 20:51