Hi All,
I have wanted a TownAce for sometime and my Son wants to be a mechanic so we decided to take on a project of getting a Broken TownAce and repairing it.

Engine was in bits taken apart by someone else. We have put it all back together and it turns over but as soon as the imobiliser is engaged we get a buzzing noise from the passenger side.

We may have a wire wrong somewhere. Any help would be appreciated. It's a Diesel Turbo Master Ace surf.
- (#13538) Andy, 29 Sep 04 13:46

Andy - need a bit more info here - what is the imobiliser, does the engine run, can you give a more exact location such as front, rear engine or door side?

- (#13538) Clive (Bristol), 30 Sep 04 01:32

ok i thought as much.

i was a bit misleading here. we mobilised it with the imobilizer key(i think thats what the three pronged thing is that you stick in on the dash) this lets me then turn the key properly as it does with any other imobilised car (my mondeo you can hear the fuel pump start when mobilised).

then we get this buzzing noise (once the key is turned to the position where you should wait for the glow plugs to do there thing) which i have no idea what it is because although i have the mechanical manual it does not show this. it is located (if the bonnet is off) on the passenger side screwed to the back bit of where the bonnet meets the body with two wires going to it with a plastic cover over it (only to protect the wires not completely covered).

i have read the articles on rob drinkwaters site and there is a picture of it and i think it says it is a glow plug relay. it is behind what i can only say is an egr valve or something like one.

the engine turns over but does not run yet so the starter is turning it even with the buzzing noise. i thought it was a buzzer to say the door was open with the lights or something like that but i have shut the doors and it still does it (which i thought as much but you just don't know until you try).

the head has a problem (so we need another one because it has melted by one of the valves)but as it was our first go at doing this and we had not heard it run ourselves we thought we would put it together broken (cause apparently it was driven in broken) and see if it would start.

it has not started yet but it turns over and we have learned a lot putting it together.

once we get the buzzing noise out the way we can see why it won't start and if it is a glow plug relay that might be the reason. it originally overheated.

hope this is enough and of the right type of info.

it states on the mpvi.net site that there is an online handbook but i can't find it anywhere.

thanks



- (#13538) Andy, 30 Sep 04 07:17

The engine should start with out the glowplugs working. It may take it's time in starting and will idle quite roughly. The glowplugs help with the cold start and the after glow with tick over until the engine is warmed up.
The glow plug relay is fed direct from the battery so beware! There is the possibilty that the connections to the glowplugs has been fitted the wrong way around.
Have you checked that fuel is getting through?
Diesel engines are quite simple in that if it turns and fuel gets squirted in it should fire, may run like a dog but thats where the complicated bits come in.
Lets see if you can get to the running like a dog stage first?
- (#13538) Clive (Bristol), 30 Sep 04 07:41

Thanks for the information Clive.

I have sorted it myself now, it was the Wire that sits on the air intake manifold being mixed in with two other wires which should have been seperated with the rubber bung thing on the washer.

Now the electric windows work also (added bonus).

How hard will it be to start it? I don't have the original battery but I have a cavalier 1.7 Turbo diesel battery which will crank it over (as it has done).

Is there anything else I need to do that is special with a Townace because I have never started one.There is some switch that says Idle up.

Also does anybody know where the online manual is for this kind of stuff. I have got the mechanical one from my Toyota dealer. Can I get the handbook from them as well.

The head is broken, it has a dip by one of the valves where it melted it. Thats why I wanted to see if we could start it just in case it was not worth messing with buying a new head and just buy an engine. It did run according to the mechanic that I got it off.

I am enjoying messing with it suprisingly.
- (#13538) Andy, 30 Sep 04 09:27

OK progress...
The recommended battery is 85-95 amps. I would suspect the VX one to be at the lower end.
However cranking it should fire, maybe only on 2 or 3 cylinders depending on where your melted bit is.
Remove the fuel pipe to the fuel pump at the pump end. The other end of this pipe is the fuel filter, it has a primer pump on the top, press this slowly and release until fuel coumes out of the pipe. Reconnect and pump some more, pumping pressure should get harder, until there is some fuel in the pump.
Try starting again.
Now there is the possibility that the timing is way off, have read of 180 degrees out, but I suspect there would be some piston valve impact going on!
Best of luck.

- (#13538) Clive (Bristol), 30 Sep 04 10:04

Andy, the online handbook pages are now in the same folders as the bulletin board archives, at mpvi.net/Ace Answers. They have a * in the left margin of the index list.

After I rebuilt my 2CT recently I did have to crank it a long time, over a minute? with the fuel pipe fixings at the injectors just cracked open to allow air to escape. At least you get the feeliing that some oil has found its way around the bearings by then!

- (#13538) Dave Mason (Sussex), 30 Sep 04 11:20

Thanks for that both of you.

I need to see the pictures of the engine to make sure we have the Electrics wired up right. So I will look on the place where Dave Said.

I will try Bleeding the fule pump as Clive said also.

We Timed the pump so that the little Punch mark was level with the Joins as per the manual. I am pretty sure we got it spot on as well as the other two marks although it was difficult to get down so that "The Parallax of error" (Reading something from the wrong angle) may have come into play but it can't be very far out. I have read on this site that one guy was one tooth out but his still started. I only want it toi start cause then I have got to take it apart again and get a new head put on.

Thanks both, I will let you know how we get on.

- (#13538) Andy, 30 Sep 04 13:53

Yes, I use a mirror to look at the marks on the sprockets so that you view them directly along the line of the teeth.

The glow plug electrics is an interesting area we haven't got a good picture of yet. A simple test would be to measure the voltage at the bus bar joining the top of the glowplugs (care not to short it to the adjacent metalwork). Should be around 10V - some is lost in the wiring because of the heavy current - then drop to around 4V for a minute or two after it's started, when they're fed via the "rubber bung thing" which is a resistor.
- (#13538) Dave Mason (Sussex), 1 Oct 04 01:20

We had some of the wiring wrong as a mate of mine up the road has a bulb and two wires and he worked out that some of the wires were going to the wrong places and so the glow plugs were not working.

As far as motor electrics go I am rubbish. If I dismantle it I remember where all the wires went but I don't understand it (not cause I am that stupid I have just never learn't it or may be that I am stupid either way I don't know it). So because I never took it apart it becomes rather difficult for me to work it out to put it back together.

For instance By the Alternator there is a cable with two outputs on it, spade connectors I think they are called. There are two receivers for these two spade connectors on the water outlet on the left side of the engine if you look at it from the fan side (Front). I don't know which one should go to which.

I don't think they go to the alternator they just go over it and look like they do maybe.

We also don't have the exhuast manifold done up as tight as we should of, it's basically tight at the top and loser at the bottom (cause we could not get to the bottom that easily). Would that stop it starting?

Any help would be appreciated as although I am reasonably mechanical and understand the principles of engines it's not until you do something like this that you start to learn properly.

I must admit that I am quite enjoying it.

- (#13538) Andy, 1 Oct 04 03:19

You're right about those two spade connectors, they go to temperature-sensitive switches on the coolant outlet. They won't affect starting. One starts up the electric fan(s) by the horizontal rad/condenser under the front of the car, the other, at an even higher temperature turns OFF the aircon system (if it's on) to reduce the load on your overheating engine. Frankly if either of these operate your coolant is getting too hot anyway for an old engine.

- (#13538) Dave Mason (Sussex), 1 Oct 04 03:46

Did what Clive said about Fuel pump.

I have checked for Diesel from the Injectors by lossening them a bit and seeing the diesel squirt out and it is getting there.

I have been looking through the fault diagnosis in the Engine manual and it recons if the Diesels is getting there then I should check the Glow plugs and stuff. We know the power is getting to the glowplugs as we tested it with a bulb and two pieces of wire and it lit up if we touch the end of the Glow Plug and the other wire with the engine somewhere (My friend showed me this).

Now I was wondering, If my engine was hot enough to melt Aluminium (and solidify the pipe on the top of the Cylinder head cover), could it have melted part of some of the glow plugs or damaged them somehow.

I am going to take the glow plugs out tomorrow and have a look to see if they are damaged just in case.

I checked the timing again and as far as I can see the Pump is spot on with the line and the center punch mark on the pulley wheel and the Camshaft is spot on with the line and the join of the head to the head cover (although the engine tilts back slightly so it it really difficult to know precisely), if I moved the belt one tooth forward on the Injection pump it would be clearly one tooth wrong and if I moved it back the same applies although it sort of looks like it is between a tooth depending how you look at it (I think I am paranoid now).

I know the crank shaft was spot on because I checked it about 10 times and cranked it around as many after (As per manual) to see if it was still correct with a socket on the crankshaft Clockwise as per manual.

I am also going to get the correct battery as I keep flattening the other trying to start it. I can't jump start it either as I can't get the jump leads to reach on my drive.

I am sure it will go and then I can take it all apart again and put a new head, gasket, timing belt and what not on.

Then I have to find a middle seat cause it is missing.

Thanks for the help.

- (#13538) Andy, 1 Oct 04 19:03

I am breaking townace if you need any bits especially interior I have it all.

- (#13538) Farook, 2 Oct 04 01:08

I have emailed you Farook but if for some chance you don't get it I am interested.

- (#13538) Andy, 2 Oct 04 04:58

After reading another Message I think the head gasket must have gone as well before we got it as (we used the old head gasket just to see if it would start save wasting £75) we refilled the water (after flushing the radiator) and the water is black and it bubbles when we are trying to start it like a volcanic spring.

This may have been why the head has melted by one of the valves as it was driven in to the garage (Where I got it from) by the lady that brought it in and I think the water must have been going out of it pretty rapidly (Who knows).

I did want to see it chug over for a bit although it looks like I have got to bite the bullet and go the whole hog and get the head, Bolts,Gasket and new timing belt and hope for the best.

The last attempt at starting it (before I flattened the battery) sounded like it wanted to go but we where getting lots of black smoke in the cab.

Any suggestions or ideas would be welcomed.

- (#13538) Andy, 2 Oct 04 12:39

You have a loose exhaust, so any smoke will be from that. As you are getting smoke it proves that some heating is going on and that the fuel is getting into the cylinders - black smoke = excess unburnt fuel. I would suspect that the compression is not enough to combust the fuel. The fuel itself may be stale?
Have one last go with a freshly charged battery, wear a gas mask as it may get very smokey!

- (#13538) Clive (Bristol), 3 Oct 04 03:16

i will give it one last go and the battery is charged fully now.

i feel lucky today.

we shall see.

thanks for the advice.



- (#13538) Andy, 3 Oct 04 05:44

I think I have had a wire connected wrong all the time but I can't be sure.

This is difficult as I don't know the terminology.

There are a group of cables that connect to the Air intake manifold with a rubber bung which connect (I hope) two big ended Wires on first and then a rubber washer (thick one) and then what we thought was another two wires with smaller ends on the metal bit of the rubber washer.

It looks to me that one of these two wires goes somewhere else by the way it was bent and I think it might go to the Injection Wire clamp that clamps the two Injectors into place on the air intake manifold.

Does anyone know if this is correct. I have tried it and the nasty buzzing noise we had has now gone when we turn the engine over although the battery is flat so I am charging it at the moment.

I think it must be that we have it wired wrong somewhere otherwise I think it would go. The bubbling noise has gone since I emptied some of the coolant out and is now the level that it should be.

Hmm is all I can say at the moment and scratch my head.
- (#13538) Andy, 3 Oct 04 08:02

After going through the Archive on MPVI.net I now know that my wiring is wrong and I can't work out which way is right. This is what was causing the buzzing sound as per my original problem.

I know that there is one wire (which is two on a ring) that should go to the Injector clamp. As it says so in two post on the MPVI.net (I did not have this doing this before).

What I can't work out is that there is another wire that either goes to the top wiring connection on the Air Intake manifold or the side bit.

It says in the archive on MPVI that there should be two wires on the side connection of the Air intake (Rubber washer with metal top)but I have three on it at the moment.

I have looked everywhere I can think of for a picture and I can't find one.

I think this is stopping me start it as the guy on the archive had the same problem (It was taken apart by someone else) and he got it started eventually by messing with the wires. If I knew how they should be connected it is something that is a "known" so then it will be something I can rule out as correct.

Can anyone draw a picture or take a photo of it.

I can't find it in the manual as I am not really a circuit diagram type of person(I can't read them).

Any help would be appreciated.

- (#13538) Andy, 3 Oct 04 10:49

I've just tried unsuccessfully to photograph the 2CT glow plug wiring. Here are the notes I made...

There are 3 terminal posts on the inlet manifold.

The first terminal post is the earth at the clamp that holds all four injector pipes. The other two terminal posts are insulated. The second one is the glow plug feed, it sticks up and has a metal bar linking across to the top of the nearest glow plug. The third one sticks out sideways away from the engine and is complicated by having a cylindrical resistor sandwiched between the connections.

There is one completely removable wiring component - a Y-shaped cable link abut 100mm long. The base of the Y has an eyelet which goes on the glow plug feed terminal. The push-on connector at the end of one branch is for sensing the voltage on the glow plugs - its mate is on a branch of the loom that also goes to the injector pump and the EGR valve. At the end of the other branch is a large eyelet which goes on the third terminal referred to above, at the end of the resistor nearest the engine.

The branch of the loom which supplies the glow plugs has two thick wires with eyelets which go either side of the resistor on the third terminal - the eyelets are different sizes and can only go on in one order. The larger one goes on first, nearer the engine. That branch of the loom also has to thin wires going into an eyelet that goes on to the earth terminal. Those wires are white or white and black.

- (#13538) Dave Mason (Sussex), 4 Oct 04 12:18

Thanks Dave that was really very kind of you to try to photo the wires for me.

We think we had it right by pure guess work and process of elimination eventually but your words confirm we have it right.

Anyway it still won't go. I am not sure if I am asking to much of it. On the underside of the head by the valve it has a 10 to 20 mm diameter melt which is about 5mm deep.

We did it to see how it went together and I was just hoping to hear it fire. Mainly because it would prove I had timed it correctly although I think it would have broken by now if I hadn't.

I am ordering a Head off Some London place and I hope once I have put it on it should go.

What do you think?

Thanks again anyway.

- (#13538) Andy, 4 Oct 04 14:57